Budget Guns and Self Defense

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94045

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Budget Guns and Self Defense

Why do guys weigh in on budget gun threads with the "How much is your life worth"? comments.

Is a Glock G22 really insufficient for self-defense because I can get an NIB G22-4 w/ NS for $359.99. Should we really consider anything cheaper than a Wilson Supergrade insufficient?

A friend just bought his two twin boys Christmas Presents (They just turned old enough for Carry Permits in my state) of Shield M1.0 9mm. Should he return them because they were only $199.99 ea after rebate?

Why should the cost of an item matter more than the history of an individual sample and model and generation history. Is the PPS M2 now inadequate became because they lowered the price? If Glock lowered the price of his pistols to only 100% markup (G2Cish price) would that somehow make them inadequate?
 
I think a lot of this mindset is spawned in the history of firearms. There was a day when low cost and quality firearms didn't exist. This mindset now is something that has just been passed down with little personal merit involved at all. Today, quality can be found on a budget.

relatable parable...
4 monkeys are put in a cage, in the middle of the cage is a ladder, at the top is a basket of bananas. When the monkeys go for the bananas, they get sprayed with a water hose until they stop trying for them. After they stop, they removed one monkey and replaced it with a new unknowing monkey. When this monkey went for the bananas, they sprayed ALL of the monkeys with the hose. Then this process was repeated by taking out another original monkey. When the second new monkey went for the bananas, the original monkeys assaulted it as to not let it climb the ladder, the first new monkey joined in. This process is repeated until all of the original monkeys are replaced, eventually leaving a cage full of monkeys that beat up a new guy for climbing the ladder, but since none of them now have been sprayed, they are simply doing it because it was done to them, and know nothing of the water hose.
 
beeenbag said:
I think a lot of this mindset is spawned in the history of firearms. There was a day when low cost and quality firearms didn't exist. This mindset now is something that has just been passed down with little personal merit involved at all. Today, quality can be found on a budget.

relatable parable...
4 monkeys are put in a cage, in the middle of the cage is a ladder, at the top is a basket of bananas. When the monkeys go for the bananas, they get sprayed with a water hose until they stop trying for them. After they stop, they removed one monkey and replaced it with a new unknowing monkey. When this monkey went for the bananas, they sprayed ALL of the monkeys with the hose. Then this process was repeated by taking out another original monkey. When the second new monkey went for the bananas, the original monkeys assaulted it as to not let it climb the ladder, the first new monkey joined in. This process is repeated until all of the original monkeys are replaced, eventually leaving a cage full of monkeys that beat up a new guy for climbing the ladder, but since none of them now have been sprayed, they are simply doing it because it was done to them, and know nothing of the water hose.
Click to expand...

So the moral is..... Those guys are all Ignorant Monkeys... Thought makes me grin.
 
94045 said:
Budget Guns and Self Defense

Why do guys weigh in on budget gun threads with the "How much is your life worth"? comments.

Is a Glock G22 really insufficient for self-defense because I can get an NIB G22-4 w/ NS for $359.99. Should we really consider anything cheaper than a Wilson Supergrade insufficient?
Click to expand...
You may be reading different threads than I'm reading.

Sure, there'll be some threads where somebody is carrying a Hi-Point, or a nearly completely rusted Charter Arms revolver in .32, and somebody will make that comment. However, I don't usually (OK it's probably never, but I may have missed one somewhere/sometime) see folks denigrate somebody who has chosen a common duty gun like a Glock G22.

On the other hand there are some who do seem to denigrate the guy who may choose to carry those Wilson Supergrade's. It's not my thing, but I don't get why people are concerned that somebody may choose to carry such a gun.
 
somethingbenign said:
Even people in poverty have a right to defend their lives. Anyone who stands in the way of that isn't pro 2A. Rarely do I make definitive statements but this is one I hold in my marrow.
Click to expand...

I just had a 70 Year Old Church Elder who was a victim of home burglary ask me what to do until he got his insurance money (he is feeling very vulnerable without a gun in the house for the first time in his life). I tried to give him one of my shotguns but he wouldn't take it. I then tried to "loan" it to him (but I suspect he saw through the ruse). I ended up sending him to Academy for a $189.99 Maverick 88 Defense in 12 ga. He did at least accept 50 rounds of reduced recoil #1 Buckshot.
 
Does it matter what the gun costs, if it wont hold up to the constant use required to be proficient with it?

Or is that another topic? :)

What I came to figure out a long time ago was, only a rich man can afford to buy cheap ****.

I tend to buy what I "cant" afford, go for known quality and rep, and figure out a way to pay for it. So far, I always have, and thats worked the best for me.

You dont have to spend a lot of money to get a good gun, but there are a lot of cheap guns out there, that are cheap for a reason, and you often hear about that too.

Personally, Id rather buy a used gun of known quality and pay more, than buy a new gun, of dubious repute, for less.

The cost of the gun is usually the cheapest part of the equation anyway. Unless of course, just buying and having the gun gets you to where you need to be.

Some spend more a month for practice ammo, than some spend for the gun. :thumbup:
 
While my much older brother was growing up and until I was about 11, our defensive family weapon was an old Sears house brand 2 1/2" chambered .410 single-shot. My Dad also had his elk rifle, but getting it into action would take longer.

It wasn't until I was 12 or 13 that we had a functioning handgun in the house, a Ruger Single-Six with the .22 Mag cylinder on semi-permanent installation (on loan from my brother). This was quickly followed by an $125 Enfield .38 for myself and a slowly expanding collection of cheap guns- $45 20 ga NEF single-shot, $75 Spanish M1916 7x57mm, a GEW 88, etc.

I never felt poorly armed or unprotected...
 
I don't have strong opinions about what firearms other people have for SD.

I just want mine to be functional and effective.

Most of my handguns have been purchased used, and often surplus. It's rare that I pay more than $300 (plus shipping and FFL) for one. I have gotten so many good ones for that or less that I have to want something very badly to consider paying more.

For instance, this Beretta 96 cost me around $200 OTD (it's an oddball no one else wanted). It functions perfectly.

If someone asks me how much I am willing to pay to protect my family's lives, I guess my answer is $200.

View media item 1867
 
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AK103K said:
Does it matter what the gun costs, if it wont hold up to the constant use required to be proficient with it?

Or is that another topic? :)

What I came to figure out a long time ago was, only a rich man can afford to buy cheap ****.

I tend to buy what I "cant" afford, go for known quality and rep, and figure out a way to pay for it. So far, I always have, and thats worked the best for me.

You dont have to spend a lot of money to get a good gun, but there are a lot of cheap guns out there, that are cheap for a reason, and you often hear about that too.

Personally, Id rather buy a used gun of known quality and pay more, than buy a new gun, of dubious repute, for less.

The cost of the gun is usually the cheapest part of the equation anyway. Unless of course, just buying and having the gun gets you to where you need to be.

Some spend more a month for practice ammo, than some spend for the gun. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

My point was just be because a
the Shield M1.0 was available for under $200 after rebate late last year doesn't make it suddenly become unreliable. Do unreliable guns exist? Shure but you can certainly buy reliable pistols that will hold up to thousands of rounds for less than $300. You can also spend a lot more for pistols that break in the first 200 rounds.
 
Tallball said:
I don't care what other people have for SD, and I don't care what mine cost.

I just want mine to be functional and effective.

My preferred HD handgun cost me $199 used about 20 years ago. It's still an excellent shooter.

Taurus Model 689

Taurus Model 689

Click to expand...

My home defense handgun is a SW9VE. Laugh all you want but it still goes bang every time I pull the trigger after 20 years.

Of course assuming I can move 6 more feet I prefer the shotgun.
 
"My home defense handgun is a SW9VE. Laugh all you want but it still goes bang every time I pull the trigger after 20 years."

They are nothing to laugh at. I had the 40 caliber version and it went bang every time.
 
Tallball said:
I don't have strong opinions about what firearms other people have for SD.

I just want mine to be functional and effective.

Most of my handguns have been purchased used, and often surplus. It's rare that I pay more than $300 (plus shipping and FFL) for one. I have gotten so many good ones for that or less that I have to want something very badly to consider paying more.

For instance, this Beretta 96 cost me around $200 OTD (it's an oddball no one else wanted). It functions perfectly.

If someone asks me how much I am willing to pay to protect my family's lives, I guess my answer is $200.

View media item 1867
Click to expand...

I didn't know enough to about the 96 to say anything on your topic but if it performs like a 92 and you shoot it well you will have a fine weapon. Locally I can get Blazer "Seconds" 165 gr for $7.99 a Box for practice ammo and Sig Performance Elite 165 gr (Unmarked V-Crown) 50 Round White Box for $18.49 so I wouldn't feel undue hardship compared to 9mm.
 
So let me take an example from the rifle and hunting side of things. I know that the budget bolt actions out there work just fine. I won’t own one because of my own personal prejudices though. To me, they are junk and I won’t buy one.

I know in my own pragmatic mind that they work fine though. Same thing for Hi Points.
 
earlthegoat2 said:
So let me take an example from the rifle and hunting side of things. I know that the budget bolt actions out there work just fine. I won’t own one because of my own personal prejudices though. To me, they are junk and I won’t buy one.

I know in my own pragmatic mind that they work fine though. Same thing for Hi Points.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the three best shooting rifles I have are a TC Compass in 6.5 CR, Howa 1500 .338 Win Mag (Basically a Weatherby Vanguard) and a Savage 10 .308 Win. I won the TC as a door prize and bought the other two as used wall flowers (before the Savage caught on and a .338 in AL?) that were so cheap I couldn't resist. All my more expensive rifles are less accurate.
 
I’m pretty sure my 92s, Canik c-100 and t-100 will all do the work. 9mm has been an effective round when placed well. The last two are Turkish clones of cz and the maker ran their wares through testing for nato approval. I got them used for half the new price.
 
Blkhrt13 said:
I’m pretty sure my 92s, Canik c-100 and t-100 will all do the work. 9mm has been an effective round when placed well. The last two are Turkish clones of cz and the maker ran their wares through testing for nato approval. I got them used for half the new price.
Click to expand...

I suspect the Stoeger STR-9 might be an okay Turk as well. No experience other than shooting someone else's you understand.
 
It's not expensive and it works just fine - CZ P-10C.
At one time when my wife and I were just starting out the home defense firearm was a Mosin M38, when they were dirt cheap.
 
My example from the rifle and hunting side of things...

Back in the early 90's I paid too much for a NiB Chinese Norinco SKS. It cost me $149 plus tax. I got lucky: my particular example has a nice trigger. The design itself is very sound. In almost 40 years of shooting it has never malfunctioned. I have shot many game animals with it... even squirrels. Yeah, the bullet just goes right through them and doesn't mess up the the meat at all. It is great for deer or hogs at iron-sight ranges. I prefer shotguns or handguns for HD, but the old SKS would certainly be effective.

My Russian commercial Makarov is similar. They had just started to import the 380 version into the US in the late 80's. Their cost was low. I wanted a smallish 380, had very little money, and paid... $89 for one NiB. I have no idea how many thousands of rounds I've shot through it since. I am 99.9% certain that it has never ever malfunctioned in any way. It is big and heavy for a 380, and the DA trigger isn't outstanding, but in SA mode it is very accurate.

So how much am I willing to spend to protect the lives of my family? $89 would almost certainly get the job done, and $149 would be overkill that might hurt the neighbors.

Makarov Target

Makarov Target

 
Stoeger was bought buy Sako who was acquired by Beretta then stoeger was placed under Benelli. Which is also owned by Beretta. I know they make guns to an exacting standard the lower price is because the Turks pay crap wages. But they use cncs and seem to have a good fit finish and function.
 
Tallball said:
My example from the rifle and hunting side of things...

Back in the early 90's I paid too much for a NiB Chinese Norinco SKS. It cost me $149 plus tax. I got lucky: my particular example has a nice trigger. The design itself is very sound. In almost 40 years of shooting it has never malfunctioned. I have shot many game animals with it... even squirrels. Yeah, the bullet just goes right through them and doesn't mess up the the meat at all. It is great for deer or hogs at iron-sight ranges. I prefer shotguns or handguns for HD, but the old SKS would certainly be effective.

My Russian commercial Makarov is similar. They had just started to import the 380 version into the US in the late 80's. Their cost was low. I wanted a smallish 380, had very little money, and paid... $89 for one NiB. I have no idea how many thousands of rounds I've shot through it since. I am 99.9% certain that it has never ever malfunctioned in any way. It is big and heavy for a 380, and the DA trigger isn't outstanding, but in SA mode it is very accurate.

So how much am I willing to spend to protect the lives of my family? $89 would almost certainly get the job done, and $149 would be overkill that might hurt the neighbors.

Makarov Target

Makarov Target

Click to expand...
Com block stuff is always solid may not be smooth and pretty. But it will always make holes in things
 
If a guy pulls a gun on me and I see it’s a Charter or High Point, I won’t even worry. I’ll probably just talk smack to him and get ready for a fist fight when his POS malfunctions.:)


Seriously though, I will only carry Glocks after having trouble with one budget gun but I know not all budget guns malfunction and not all Glocks are perfect. I had to send a cranky G30sf back to Glock after 560 rounds.

Glocks last a long time, are reliable and magazines are cheap so I think you don’t really spend much more over a period of years of shooting and buying a bunch of magazines.
And for some reason I just like the grip angle and the 2x4 shape. I can’t get into this ergo shaped grips.
 
To me, it’s not about price. It’s about how it is made, how it feels, the reputation of the company, and the utility.

There may be more, but 3 gun makers come to mind that I absolutely won’t own even though there are many proponents.

Case in point, Keltec, people seem to love them or hate them. While some of them teeter on my scale of cheap vs. quality, the utility wins over, not the price. I must be one lucky sumbuck, I have at least 6 and have never had a problem with any of them. And some have really been shot a lot, and I mean A LOT!

For 15 years I carried a Keltec P11. Again not for price, but for utility. I could afford anything better , I had Wilsons, Colts , and a Les Baer. But 25 years ago pocket rockets were nonexistent. Why a pocket rocket? I live in Texas and my dress was business, but rarely wore a jacket. 10 rounds of firepower in a lightweight gun is perfect for business slacks, and it did not cause my pants to be lopsided.
B8F769CD-AF99-428E-9156-EF6C671A31AC.jpeg
One other company followed suit after the P11, but it is one of those craptacular companies. Fast forward 23-24 years later and Sig comes out with the 365 and everyone is suddenly a fanboy of a 10 round pocket rocket like it is revolutionary. Granted, I would pick the Sig over the Keltec any day. My point is that Keltec had a great idea and utility for Me which won me over, not the price.

FWIW, I retired the Keltec when I discovered the Rohrbaugh in 2006. Since Rohrbaugh’s are no longer made, I may go with either a 365 , Hellcat, or XDS.
D53976EA-9A32-42AC-87F5-9BE115129E13.jpeg

527C179F-FDCF-4F95-935E-E9816EFD5B4F.jpeg

I have not had the chance to work with the XDS yet. You can also see why the Rohrbaugh is touted as the smallest and lightest pocket nine.
 
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