Bit of a rant... Mouse Guns

All this talk about knives has me worried now. Goodby Pocket knife, hello Machete. Will be spending the day figuring how the best way to conceal it. Maybe some practice in between throwing one. Bigger is better. What is the largest Machete I can buy? Mine might be too small.

crestoncowboy said:

The only time I ever carried one was running/jogging or lifeguarding at the coast....in trunks.

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Only time I don't have jeans and boots on is when I run. And I still run in boots for a reason. There are a couple neighborhood GSDs that are aggressive as heck but I wouldn't waste my time carrying a mouse gun for them, a bigger stronger more aggressive dog(s) is the solution I came up with. Even a lightweight mouse gun would drag my shorts down, I'd have to fanny pack it and at that point I might as well carry something bigger.

Jeb Stuart said:

All this talk about knives has me worried now. Goodby Pocket knife, hello Machete. Will be spending the day figuring how the best way to conceal it. Maybe some practice in between throwing one. Bigger is better. What is the largest Machete I can buy? Mine might be too small.

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I see people occasionally open carrying swords in downtown Austin now that it's legal. Less worry about weapon retention if someone tried to grab it from your hands they'll have to worry about body part retention.

larryh1108 said:

Those who belittle anyone that has or carries one of these should volunteer to be shot with one. Let's see if he gets pizzed or seeks cove

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Those who say a squirt gun full of cat urine isn't great for self defense should volunteer to be shot in the face with warm cat urine.

Yep sounds just as dumb to me lol

Jeb Stuart said:

All this talk about knives has me worried now. Goodby Pocket knife, hello Machete. Will be spending the day figuring how the best way to conceal it. Maybe some practice in between throwing one. Bigger is better. What is the largest Machete I can buy? Mine might be too small.

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Mines just right.

AK103K said:

If back stabbing or throwing it (and who in their right mind throws their weapon away, unless in desperation?) gets it done, Im on it.

Just curious, but at what distances do you envision using your little guns and how? 7 yards, or 21 feet has been the Tueller standard for a long time now, and Ive recently read, that thats been expanded.

How fast can you have that gun in your hand and make good soild hits on a moving target? Assuming it wasnt already on top of you.

I normally carry a fixed blade knife and can access it a lot faster and easier than my deeper concealment handguns. At the distances most here seem to consider SD, if there were no cover or other way to deal with things that happen quickly, Id would close as quickly as I could and use that knife before I tried to clear that gun.

A smart person brings both gun and knife, and more, to any fight.

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Well I’ve always carried a pocket knife. At 25 yards and closing I could empty the magazine into a human size center of mass, I practice this once or twice a week. Now I don’t carry that big revolver, it’s a stationary paper target, not ones brandishing a weapon or snarling or advancing on me. But I’m hoping that all those thousands of shots using target acquisition, trigger control and the thought , front sight, front sight has built an automatic response to a firearm in hand pointed down range. Those are not bullseye aimed shots. I practice trigger pull as the front sight comes back on target.I do the same drills with autos. But hell we all know the best plans never survive first contact with the enemy.

Now I’m old and slow and you your self would most likely have my throat cut before my little gun cleared my front pocket, but if I got just one shot it would be in your sternum, and some how I don’t think there would much fight left for either of us at that point.
BTW. That target is at 50 feet not 75. The groups open up at 25 yards.

I don’t go around spoiling for a fight. Some do.

Michael Tinker Pearce said:

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Let's face it, a .25 auto is nobody's idea of a great combat handgun, and few people even regard it as an acceptable primary EDC. But I have encountered rare situations where my wife's Colt Junior (which she bought because it's adorable and fun to shoot) was the most reasonable compromise between carrying a gun and being unarmed. While of distinctly limited utility it is certainly better than nothing!

It chaps my posterior the way people react to these guns. Show one in almost any venue and some idjit will misquote Jeff Cooper (who really ought to have known better,) saying something to the effect of, 'If you ever shot me and I found out I'd be pissed!'

No, dude, you wouldn't. You'd be too busy dying or seeking medical attention, because I can shoot, and I'm going to put a few of these little pills into something you can't live without.

Yes, they're under-powered. Yes, there's nearly always a better choice. But these are not toys. Joke about it if you want, but people can, have and will be killed by these little guns. Let's all remember, these are for self defense; you're not trying top drop a Cape Buffalo. If you put a couple of these in a bad guy and he runs away, mission accomplished. I know I'm not going to stand around while someone shoots at me, even with a mouse-gun... and if they hit me I doubt I'm going to find it humorous!

End rant.

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Thank you, sir, for saying what I feel.

My dear mom taught art at college and often in was night classes for adults. She carried her Colt Junior in her purse for the late night parking lot. Now she is 84 and can gaurantee her little Colt is in her purse right now.
I edc a .380 because it is small enough to not interfere with my life. I dont any longer try to convince or convert anyone to agree. There are far too many experts, and just plain geniuses that know .380s bounce off of hard boiled eggs, and a 9mm will drop a rhino drt.

I guess I don’t care enough, most of the time I carry a PM45, sometimes I carry a LCP, a lot of the time I carry a NAA .22, I’ve always wanted a baby Browning which I would no doubt carry a lot.

If I’m honest, how much I like a gun has more to do with what I carry than anything else, except maybe size. And maybe it’s just me but I don’t really care what anyone thinks about it..

It’s possible I can win a full on gun battle with the NAA, and it’s possible for me to empty the 45, twice, into a bad guys head and him still beat me to death anyway. Who knows, why worry about it? The only guarantee is you will die. Be ready to meet you maker and carry what you want.

My 2¢, worth just what you paid for it.

whughett said:

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Well I’ve always carried a pocket knife. At 25 yards and closing I could empty the magazine into a human size center of mass, I practice this once or twice a week. Now I don’t carry that big revolver, it’s a stationary paper target, not ones brandishing a weapon or snarling or advancing on me. But I’m hoping that all those thousands of shots using target acquisition, trigger control and the thought , front sight, front sight has built an automatic response to a firearm in hand pointed down range. Those are not bullseye aimed shots. I practice trigger pull as the front sight comes back on target.I do the same drills with autos. But hell we all know the best plans never survive first contact with the enemy.

Now I’m old and slow and you your self would most likely have my throat cut before my little gun cleared my front pocket, but if I got just one shot it would be in your sternum, and some how I don’t think there would much fight left for either of us at that point.
BTW. That target is at 50 feet not 75. The groups open up at 25 yards.

I don’t go around spoiling for a fight. Some do.

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Im going to show you a trend here, and where you want to place your handgun rounds, and much as possible anyway, and as quickly as possible. See if you can figure it out.....








Gettin the drift?

Armored farmer said:

There are far too many experts, and just plain geniuses that know .380s bounce off of hard boiled eggs, and a 9mm will drop a rhino drt.

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And there are far too many who seem, to think that all you have to do is "have some kind of gun", and get a hit on them "somewhere", and they will fall down like they do in the movies.

Doesnt matter what you have, you have to hit the important parts, to get the desired results, especially if you want that to happen quickly.

Not to pick on your mom here, but how often does she practice doing that, that you feel confident, that she would have a good result, should she need to use that gun? How often do you, or anyone else carrying these, or anything else for that matter do that?

Its hard enough to shoot a full sized handgun quickly and accurately, even just a little bit realistically, and under just a little self-induced stress. The smaller you go, the quicker it becomes just that much harder. If you doubt that, then give it a try and let us know how you do.

I’ve always had a fondness for what some people call “Mouse” guns. To be sure there are any number of larger caliber handguns that are better suited for self defense. I also believe that the mouse gun you have in your pocket is way better than the 1911 that’s still sitting at home because it was too big to be carried on a particular day. I’m pretty sure that there are quite a few people that were sent on to the next life by mouse guns. As for me, my hands are large and, as I have gotten older, I’ve developed arthritis in my hands. Because of this, there are some of these that are so small ( North American revolvers and derringers ) that I just can’t use safely any more. For this reason, I avoid these. That said, I would love to have some of those I have seen pictures of on THR like the 1908 Colt Vest Pocket, the Colt Junior, Baby Browning (and Baby Browning clones). These are icons as far as I’m concerned. They’re hard to find in good condition.

I think I may have been born about 25 years too late! As much as anything, I would love to turn the hands of time back and have a conversation with those people that designed small caliber revolvers and automatics to get a better sense of what lead to the development of these handguns. To be sure, people were much smaller in stature 100+ years ago. Did it take less horsepower to incapacitate assailants? Were they intended for the Victorian image of the “weaker sex”? So much of the logic that went in to the development of these is lost to us now. Kind of a shame when you think about it.

The picture I’ve attached to this post is of three 32 S&W caliber Smith & Wesson revolvers I acquired years ago. They’ve suffered from neglect. Mostly from the use of corrosive ammunition and improper cleaning but they would still fire. Although I have absolutely no intention of ever firing them. The 32 S&W was once considered an adequate round for self defense. I would sure like to know how they arrived at that conclusion. As much as anything, I wish these three revolvers could talk. I would dearly love to know who owned them and where they have been. ) So much history is lost to us.

There are. 380s not much bigger than .25s and 9mms not much bigger than that.

I happen to have a H&R version of that middle one. Paid all of $25 for it 30 years ago. Shoot it occasionally.

Michael Tinker Pearce said:

I do not like it when people respond to their own thoughts rather than my actual words. An awful lot of people seem to have missed the fact that I am not advocating carrying one, especially not as a primary. I do not consider them adequate as a day-to-day self defense weapon; I would have thought that would be clear to anyone reading my post. I was saying I was sick of people belittling them and acting as if they are some sort of useless toy. I also mentioned that there is almost always a better option. These weapons are highly situational and marginally effective, rather like the NAA mini revolvers a lot of people carry as a second or third gun. While they may not be a good choice they are superior to no choice, but that's a pretty low bar.

This was not a 'caliber war' thing. This was a 'sick of the macho BS and posturing' thing. I'm sorry if I failed to make that clear.

I briefly carried a .25 ACP in my youth, for exactly as long as it took to afford something better... and I made sure that wasn't long. Later I sometimes carried a small .22 as a third gun when I was on duty. I've carried my wife's little Colt exactly once. We went to my brother's for Christmas Day, and he does not like guns or want them in his house. If I was observed to be carrying a gun there would have been a major stink that ruined the family Christmas. The Colt was a compromise between carrying a gun and being unarmed. Very much sub-optimal but better than nothing, and the only weapon we had available that I could be confidant would remain unnoticed for five hours of close contact with people who have known me all of our lives.

Self defense with any handgun is a pretty dubious proposition, and I am certainly not recommending that anyone handicap themselves further by carrying something under-powered and difficult to shoot well as their primary. But that does not make these little guns useless, or a joke. That's really what I was trying to say.

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As you have discovered there are some folks on this site that are complete jerks and will go out of their way to relentlessly attack people. Like it or not, these handguns are part of our firearms history and they do fill a purpose IMO. I too started a post on Mouse guns. All I asked was: Love them or hate them? Look at the storm that stirred up! At any rate, I’ve posted a picture of some old mouse guns I own. I have an abiding fondness for this stuff although I carry pistols that are far heavier in my pocket that I’ve recently found out ARE NOT pocket pistols despite the fact that they fit nicely in the right front pocket of my suits, dress slacks and my casual slacks. Although that was a different thread. I don’t know how I’ve managed to reach the ripe old age of 68 so completely ignorant of the facts!

Dibbs said:

And look at what you did, after you were injured. Did you continue shooting, and then go on with your day, or did you immediately seek medical attention ?
My case in point.

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Yes, because I wasn't engaged in a fight, and as I said, not 'chemically enhanced'. Had it been anyone but me shooting me, I would probably become immediately enraged to the point of not caring about the injury until I defeated my opponent by any means necessary. (ask the guy that shot me with a BB gun during a BB gun war what happens when you point a gun at me, or the guy who fired a blank at me WITHOUT a BFA on-I grabbed the M16A1 out of his hands as I pulled him into the machine gun pit, and proceeded to beat him with the buttstock. Granted the only injury (to me) there was powder burns, but my point is adrenaline does strange things to people, including making them forget or not notice they've been shot....
Michael and AK103K are both right when they point out no matter the caliber, shot placement is critical. A .22 in the right place will do the job better than a .45 just passing through muscle.
Somebody points a .25 at me, I'm not going to sneer and say "Waddaya, tryin' to scare me?". I will be weighing my options carefully.

AK103K said:

Its hard enough to shoot a full sized handgun quickly and accurately, even just a little bit realistically, and under just a little self-induced stress. The smaller you go, the quicker it becomes just that much harder. If you doubt that, then give it a try and let us know how you do.

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I can shoot a small 380 very quickly and accurately, and for myself, faster than a larger gun. Head shots no problem at 10- 15 yds as fast as I can pull the trigger. I remember as a kid learning to juggle. Started off with big objects, keep getting smaller objects and more of them. When I draw a small gun it is just like coming up and pointing my finger. I prefer a smaller gun, and love it when so many people underestimate them. I mean I have actually started to love it.
And by the way, I can conceal a small gun in my hand. And if anyone here say's they are faster at the draw than a man with his hand already on the gun, then that is great. Not me.

By the way, your pictures of targets say nothing about speed. Just targets with holes. So what is your idea of the pattern. What, carry a 44magnum because of a bigger hole?

Let a man carry what he wants, shoot what it wants and you spend more of your time shooting whatever YOU carry . Sounds like there are some that may be actually be scared of a small gun and the guy that can shoot one well. I am. Something bothers them that someone out there that can shoot a small barrel pistol with quickness and accuracy.
And I do not underestimate any man with a gun no matter what size. And I could care less what anyone say's. You want to carry a 44mag. then please do, I will NOT tell you, what you can do or capable of, I will NOT accept you telling me what I can or cannot do or what I am capable of. I know my guns like the back of my hand. And I know their limitations. And I know my limitations. And I damn sure carry them with complete piece of mind.
Sure there is times when I carry a larger pistol etc. But the 380 is always there as well and I know if something happens to the larger gun, I can quickly use the smaller gun and do it very well.

And as for the guys grandmother. lol, she would not be the first to lay away some thug carrying a bid ass handgun. Not wise to underestimate her, or anyone.

I’d like to clarify that, like the OP, I don’t habitually carry a .25 mousegun. However, like the OP, I believe that for the right person in the right circumstances, they can work really well.

IMO, people should carry the largest/most powerful caliber gun that they shoot best. But it’s got to be small enough to actually be carried day-in, day-out. A lover of guns is going to have the caliber awareness, and the range time, to learn to shoot a more challenging gun.

However, someone who feels threatened and decides to carry a gun, or just feels they ought to carry, but doesn’t necessarily love guns for their own sake, will probably not put in the range time to become proficient with a difficult gun. For them, especially if they have small hands or weak hand strength, a mouse gun, with its single action trigger, light slide spring or tip up barrel, attractive looks, and mild recoil can be really good.

I carry a P3AT .380, because it hits the sweet spot for me of portability, effectiveness (with defensive ammo) and I can shoot it well. My wife shoots a Sig 238 .380 as her home defense gun, but does better with a Beretta 950, which is a .25acp mousegun.

My point with the statistical analysis was that arguably, many civilians would be better off carrying a tiny gun that they can also shoot well, vs the alternative of not carrying at all. Sometimes we can let “best” become the enemy of “good.”

Kleanbore said:

Whether those numbers are valid or not, they are completely irrelevant to what might be needed should the occasion arise.

They do not appear to me to be very conducive to getting into action in a short amount of time.

Is any firearm "necessary for the "average joe", in your mind?

How on Earth might that be?

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Kleanbore said:

Headshots at 10-15 yards sound like the stuff of a hostage rescue mission to me.

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Or a church security team member.

It is your gun, your choice, your decision... why do you care what anybody else thinks? Especially some anonymos person on this internet? Your problem isn't what other people say about your carry choice, your problem is that you care what they are saying!

P.S. I carried a CZ 45 (25acp) for about 5 years before NAA started shipping their .32acp and I was better armed than all my friends that gave me grief! They all carried 1911's etc. ... and pretty much NEVER had a gun on their person... EVER! I am still never unarmed in public... unlike my hog leg packing pals!

Michael Tinker Pearce said:

View attachment 883677
Let's face it, a .25 auto is nobody's idea of a great combat handgun, and few people even regard it as an acceptable primary EDC. But I have encountered rare situations where my wife's Colt Junior (which she bought because it's adorable and fun to shoot) was the most reasonable compromise between carrying a gun and being unarmed. While of distinctly limited utility it is certainly better than nothing!

It chaps my posterior the way people react to these guns. Show one in almost any venue and some idjit will misquote Jeff Cooper (who really ought to have known better,) saying something to the effect of, 'If you ever shot me and I found out I'd be pissed!'

No, dude, you wouldn't. You'd be too busy dying or seeking medical attention, because I can shoot, and I'm going to put a few of these little pills into something you can't live without.

Yes, they're under-powered. Yes, there's nearly always a better choice. But these are not toys. Joke about it if you want, but people can, have and will be killed by these little guns. Let's all remember, these are for self defense; you're not trying top drop a Cape Buffalo. If you put a couple of these in a bad guy and he runs away, mission accomplished. I know I'm not going to stand around while someone shoots at me, even with a mouse-gun... and if they hit me I doubt I'm going to find it humorous!

End rant.

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Mizar said:

I'll just open a beer, sit back and enjoy the comments that would follow...

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On target.

AK103K said:

Not to pick on your mom here, but how often does she practice doing that, that you feel confident, that she would have a good result, should she need to use that gun? How often do you, or anyone else carrying these, or anything else for that matter do that?

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I appreciate your concern, and truly am grateful that you're not picking on anyone.
SOME people may not realize that OTHER people also have history, and backgrounds, and experiences in three or four disciplines of competitive shooting sports for over four decades, and are completely, completely qualified to choose their personal protection.

Those who seriously practice with their subcompacts and snubs to the point of proficiency....can sometimes find shooting service and target sized guns a little mundane.