Lennyjoe
Member
Daughter has shot 3 deer with her Savage 110 using Winchester 100gr Powerpoint and all 3 dies in their tracks. Longest shot was 175 yards.
Need a 243 win bullet for white tail at 150 to 250 yards
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Yes, I pointed out in the first post I made you quoted that the same manufacturing methods are used, but it's different to say they are exactly the same without info from Speer or independent measurements.
I would expect from an overall product philosophy standpoint God Dot handgun bullets built their reputation on several strong factors. These factors are with the framework of a human body as the target.
1. Rapid expansion after impact on the intended target.
2. Maintaining bullet integrity through travel inside the target.
Both of those lead to
3. Repeatable penetration depth within a target within sn accepted range of penetration depths. Not typically displaying accepted penetrating less than, nor greater than, an expexted distance.
4. Little effect of exterior layers ( typical clothing) worn by the intended target.
There's a whole different set of data on performance after passing through all sorts of barriers (such as automobile glass) that wouldn't typically be expected to apply to sport game hunting.
So with this in mind, if Fusion rifle bullets have difficulty game that is light skinned, woildn't it be philosophically congruent to go back to feature 1. above for Gold Dot rifle bulltets advertised as sold for the same overall purpose as Gold Dot handgun bullets?
I'm still interested in definitive objective info demonstrating that all parameters of Fusion and Gold Dot rifle bullets sharing the same caliber and bullet weight are identical, within manufacturing and measurement tolerances of course. It's not too difficult for me to concieve of a slight change in manufacturing processes to allow electroplating the jacket at designed difference in jacket thickness across the bullet profile similar to the properties Norma advertises for their Oryx bullet line, which I haven't seen data advertising electroplating as part of the manufacturing process.
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I have options of moving targets in mind just like we used to do for our bow hunting.
Maybe even some friendly competition.
I haven't tried her rifle trigger yet, I have it here for the reloads.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/handloading-speers-new-gold-dot-bullets/359317
Skived nose for "rapid expansion" and a slippery coating. I run gold dots in my handguns and truly believe that if the fusion had a wider meplat, (think Nppt) they would act closer what I see from a handgun projectile, maybe skiving the nose helps? For penetration I've no complaints with the fusion types, but Skived nose or not, I'll not be needing them for sub-elk class game. I do enjoy they're accuracy and am glad someone finally brought a cheap tuff bullet to the table.
What is false about it???
She has never tried any other rifle in her life except a 22.
She is doubting the bullets, not the caliber.
The 223 info isn't relevant here because it isn't a legal deer caliber here, if it was a lot of
people would use it.
The question here is: What bullet can I reload in a 243 that will exit the deer at 150 to 250 yards for
a better blood trail than the Fusion.
I may be wasting my time reloading if these are, as advertised.
Still wondering how I can test for an EXIT???
Even testing my reloads because I am sure I can match any factory load with grouping
but the velocity & groups won't tell me what I really need to know.
Lining up gallon jugs is a back yard Yahoo Vid kind of thing with no real valid outcome.
Any ideas?
JFrank
Member
I hope you figure something out cause I’m interested myself in hunting bullets, the copper we’re mentioned to me awhile back as I was working on a deer load a fella swore that was the way forward. - light high speed big damage..
J
Varminterror
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I can’t speak to the Fusion’s blood trail, as I have not used them, but they’re an electroplated bullet. But I’ll point something out which isn’t always intuitive:
A simple cup and core bullet like the Rem Corelokt or Hornady Interlock with “controlled expansion” will expand well and leave a larger exit wound (relatively). A very forward progressive permanent wound cavity with a smaller temporary to permanent cavity ratio (relatively). These bullets can’t give up too much too early, otherwise they’ll fall apart, so they hold together tighter, don’t dump energy as quickly, but penetrate well because they don’t waste too much energy up front with overexpansion. These will kill, don’t get me wrong, but they kill differently than some other bullets. NAB’s, and I’d expect the Fusions based on using them in other cartridges, are bonded, so they’ll hold together better following more “violent” expansion. They can dump a lot up front without risking much fracture, so they’ll produce a larger temporary cavity, a more “snake ate an egg” permanent cavity, and may not bleed out the exit quite as much as the cup and core bullets above. Copper monometals and partition bullets work more like a bonded bullet than a cup and core - they can be made with very “soft” tips, because even if the nose wipes completely away, the heavy solid shank will still penetrate out. Another big temp cavity, but instead of a smoother “snake ate an egg” permanent cavity, it’s kind of like a trumpet shooting a spitwad as the shedding petals of a Barnes or the smearing Ogive of the Partition come apart, and the smaller diameter shaft finishes the race with less influence on surrounding tissue. Frangibles like the SST, ELD-x, etc, or the Berger Hybrids I have used to kill my last couple bucks in 6 creed often won’t exit, won’t bleed worth a damn, and they’ll blow a huge temporary cavity, like a mushroom cloud turned on its side...
Judging those for blood trail alone, the cup and core bullets are hard to beat. But blood trail alone is not the entire story...
The key difference for me is how far I might have to trail/track. Blood trails seem great, but a bullet which anchors deer within 10-30yrds doesn’t need much blood trail. For this reason, I lean away from the cup and core, and towards the faster killing bullets. Not everyone is as comfortable as I have become with frangible bullets. They might not bleed much externally, but the inside looks like canned jam, and they don’t travel - “tracking” involves walking to the point of impact, turning in the direction of the deer’s run, and spotting the downed deer. The NAB’s and Partitions I recommended on the first page offer more insurance of an exit wound and blood trail, with only a slightly reduced “drop dead quick” factor. Cup and core bullets will often leave you needing the blood trail they offer. They’ll kill, and deer will go down, but your likelihood of having a 100yrd+ tracking job is exponentially increased.
(Enter all of the guys touting DRT’s with high shoulder shots and cup and core bullets, personally insulted that my experience doesn’t align with their preference).
I could use timed rate of extraction from an electroplating solution to smootly provide a countoured jacket thickness, less near the meplat, more toward the base, as something simple enough for snyone reading this post to hopefully understand. Can you tell me why none of the otherr features you emphasize would preclude this possibility?
I await data to make a formal conclusion. Clearly YMMV
Lining up representative critter carcasses or suitable representative critter parts with water jugs for a backstop?
I also purchased some Norma .243 Winchester factory ammo loaded with their 100 grain Oryx projectile. I'm thinking these would be a better feral hog load for my niece vs the 90 grain Nosler Accubond Underwood ammo. A bonded protected point advertised with 90% weight retention, but with a tapered jacket and skiving near the meplat. It has a lower BC than the 95 grain Fusion, as it has a flat base, no boat-tail, but ought to be worth a try.
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/nor...er-ammo-100-grain-oryx-20160332-p-109209.aspx
Component bullets.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/29137
From the Norma catalog:
"Oryx belongs to the new generation of hunting bullets – where the core and jacket are bonded. The result is a bullet with new characteristics. A carefully engineered jacket, combined with a bonded core, yields a bullet that will not fragment even if heavy bone is hit, but will fully expand to a large diameter even when only soft tissue is encountered. A lot of hunters want a bullet that stays together and won’t fragment when the animal is hit. Stringent jacket tolerances are the key to fine accuracy. The construction of the Oryx bullet allows a relatively thin jacket. Stringent demands on the material, measurement and weight combined with the construction and manufacturing process, ensures superior accuracy. Hunting small and medium sized game, or shots through soft tissue demand a rapid expansion bullet. The bonded construction works in effect, combined with the gilding metal jacket with a thin front wall. This thin jacket ensures an early expansion of the bullet."
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irishlad
Contributing Member
I use 100 gr Nosler Partition bullets in my 243. Taken many mule deer with them.
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Not a 1:1 comparison (but neither are milk jugs and newspaper), go hunt feral hogs, ideally sows. Either shoot them at distance or download your ammo such that for the distance you are hunting, the bullet will be traveling at about the same velocity when it impacts. Then see which ones exit and which do not.
stillquietvoice
Contributing Member
You could try shooting through a semi frozen ham, ribs or other such meat. Might give an indication of performance on game.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Why in the world would you use "semi-frozen" ham or other meat? I don't think the OP's female friend is shooting semi-frozen deer.
stillquietvoice
Contributing Member
True but it will give more resistance for the bullet hopefully more real world results.
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
That everyone would rather see her with a larger rifle.
He, like I and others, would NOT recommend a different caliber.
We are in the Handloading section. We are here to help with the problem at hand.
Clearly has no advice for handloading a 243Win.
If I had a 450Bushmaster and wanted to hunt field mice, “just get a rimfire” doesn’t help me use the rifle I have.
I think you have some good bullet choices laid before you. (I favor the Interlocks.) I am positive you will get her rifle squared away, and we’re here to help that.
(Hey, good on you for taking it on, by the way.
)mustanger98
Member
Lennyjoe's reference to 100gr PowerPoints... I used those for a good while and they're good bullets. Like I say, I've had good results.
I think some people see a brand name like "Fusion" and think they're dropping the atom bomb on the deer and get disappointed when it didn't explode.
The gallon jugs will show you how many it'll over-penetrate and how many it took to stop the bullet. I hear you can use a stack of wet newspapers and do the same thing. Or, you can look up Paul Harrel and see if he's tested this.
mustanger98
Member
While I do lean to cup/core bullets, and I've seen the high shoulder shot work, I don't know about personal insults. It sounds like a reasonable explanation.
Wow the high shoulder shot to me it wasteful in shoulder & tenderloin & some neck meat, the latter isn't my favorite but
it is used if we can save it.
Plus you are correct about the bullet size limiting how much mass it can open & not loose weight & energy, which applies to
any caliber of course but this 243 bullet is a rocket sled on a rail which can deliver a real payload, yet it is almost in a
category where you have to pick the bullet for the angle when I know there has to be a good overall bullet for any angle.
May be factory may be home made, maybe both.
Good shot, but you are supposed to smash the guitar on the stage floor, not over a band member's head.
Still a good shot though.
Thanks.
She is a tiny thing & an example many young people should follow or look up to.
The last deer she got this year, her Dad had surgery & couldn't help her skin the deer, so she hung the deer-an 8 point- in their front
yard, skinned it & quartered it then cut it up for the freezer, all by herself. This is a girl 21 years old, about 90 pounds on a heavy day.
We have to keep this generation going & maybe even teach her how to reload while at it.
Just a thought more toward the animal than the bullet:
Anyone who has ever hunted deer in the RUT knows that a buck will TRY as hard as they can to stay
with the DOE even after they are hit, unless it is an impact that completely breaks him down or like I
always say, TO HEAVY FOR HIM TO CARRY.
The girl here is using vacation days in the RUT to hunt so most likely she is shooting some of these with
their nose at the Does rear end. I know for a fact they will try to stay with the Doe & if they are carrying a
rifle hit she will lead them till they drop or can't carry it.
Thus the blood trail round comes in focus more clearly & more necessary.
Anyone who has ever hunted deer in the RUT knows that a buck will TRY as hard as they can to stay
with the DOE even after they are hit, unless it is an impact that completely breaks him down or like I
always say, TO HEAVY FOR HIM TO CARRY.
The girl here is using vacation days in the RUT to hunt so most likely she is shooting some of these with
their nose at the Does rear end. I know for a fact they will try to stay with the Doe & if they are carrying a
rifle hit she will lead them till they drop or can't carry it.
Thus the blood trail round comes in focus more clearly & more necessary.
False that we would all hope she'd try other calibers and rifles. The .223 data (had we been able to score today) would have been relevant for types of bullets vs impact speeds vs exits. For a better blood trail literally anything softer than a mono/fusion will leave bigger holes. The biggest factors I've drawn so far:
Wind
Too long of a run after hit
Broadside shots
Distance
Based on all the data provided, hitting your target where you intend is paramount so contending with the wind is number 1.
Ballistic tips, Sierra gamekings, Hornady interlocks, elds, naccubonds, ttsx, etc address this nicely with elds and tgk leading the way.
Too long of a run is from (in my opinion) not enough immediate trauma to the vitals, at high impact speeds all bullets above are capable, with the coppers coming in last especially as the distance grows.
Taking Broadside shots negates the need for a tough bullet, so unless some other requirement that I've missed is at play, the coppers aren't needed. The accubond can be debated i suppose but the parameters don't dictate it as a necessity.
The distance you discuss means that impacts will ALL be below 2900 and above 1900 fps without even having to get out my calculator. This means that everything should exit fine on a Broadside boiler room shot. The size of exit being dependant on expansion, shrapnel, and velocity of exit after initial impact. If you want an at home test, fire all the bullets you're considering into test media at simulated impact velocities, keep all factors equal, catch the bullets after impact. They are ALL capable of exiting a deer at the given ranges so in final comparison, measure diameters, widest wins. For the best blood trails, remind her not to shoot too high up, lower equals more blood regardless of hole size.
That being said, decimating the vital cavity with a softer bullet rarely needs tracking.
On the factory note, have her try the browning bxr 97 gr, yes they're expensive but they are perfectly at the other end of the spectrum from the fusion line and if she doesn't like the grenade in the chest that would give us more to work with (and yes as long as the distance is over 75 yds, she'll have a much larger hole to look through).
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