Bit of a rant... Mouse Guns

jar said:

I can't speak for others but I actually practice and train more with my "Mouse" guns than I do with any of the others. Sure, I have some fairly nice larger size and caliber handguns and even carry them, but realistically on the very unlikely chance I ever actually have to use one it will be at BBD and there a "Mouse" gun really would be my first choice.

First, by "Mouse" gun I am talking about those that I can cover or just about cover with my hand and in calibers between 22lr and the 32 family both 32 and the 32acp series.

The primary reason is that a small gun can be used effectively held close to the body and so more secure and better braced. The smaller calibers also allow greater control for multiple rapid shots on target. In addition, such guns really are easier to carry and conceal regardless of dress.

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Good on ya. Judging by what I see and hear, Id say youre in the minority though.

Seems like when you bring it up and ask, many around here really dont want to hear it, and start attacking you and want to quickly deflect and change the subject. Wonder why.

That isnt just a mouse gun phenomenon either though. Everyone seems to shoot expert with whatever when you talk about things with them, and then when you actually get to shoot with them, I guess they're just having a bad day. And a really bad day at that. But hey, we all have our bad days.

I think we all tend to overestimate and overstate our skills, and thats just human nature I guess. Still, the person you want to be the most honest and realistic with is yourself. You only fool yourself if you arent.

It just seems here, that most who push the smaller guns, seem to have a very narrow use expectation, and really dont seem to be looking at the bigger picture. "Bad Breath Distances" are certainly one part of the overall, but still, are just one small part of a much bigger picture.

If you limit yourself to only one of the smaller guns, perhaps this should be an "at what distance do you become "effectively" armed with what you have" type thing.

Or maybe that hurts tender feelings and sensibilities too?

Jar, loved your post and right on. Thanks for posting. Feel the same way and there are many of us who for years know exactly what you are talking about and understand these weapons very well. Always love your pics and post. Just ignore the ignorance of others.

Happy Shooting!

Kleanbore said:

Averages mean little, and with small samples, nothing

That doesn't make anything in it valid.

Don't!

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I know 68 and.209 shootings are not enough. That said if you look at 9mm, .40 and .45 the failure to stop numbers are a lot closer. I don't believe the increased failure to stop numbers for .25 ACP are an anomaly but you are free to view it however you like.

I realize that I have some confirmation bias going on in that it shows what I've suspected. .25 ACP is not worthless but it's less effective than a major caliber.

The technically correct answer is "We don't know because adequate studies have not been done on real life self defense shootings".

Essentially we are all just arguing opinion and bias.
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AK103K said:

It just seems here, that most who push the smaller guns, seem to have a very narrow use expectation, and really dont seem to be looking at the bigger picture. "Bad Breath Distances" are certainly one part of the overall, but still, are just one small part of a much bigger picture.

If you limit yourself to only one of the smaller guns, perhaps this should be an "at what distance do you become "effectively" armed with what you have" type thing.

Or maybe that hurts tender feelings and sensibilities too?

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The point I find of any use is to honestly understand your personal limitations. While I quite enjoy shooting at soda bottles with friends on the berm at the short rifle range using my Dan Wesson 15-2, I'm not about to try a shot at that distance in a crowded and chaotic public environment. I'm not going to take someone into custody or serve any warrants or make a traffic stop or try to arrest someone or try to attack someone wearing body armor who has a long gun.

If I do use a handgun it will be within the limitations of my capabilities. The first rule for me is to try to not make situations worse. I'll leave the bigger picture to those who are bigger than me.

I came close to being robbed 1 day - several years ago - IN the parking lot of the gun store.

I was carrying my carry gun at the time - a 92FS. But, it was INSIDE of a gun case. I was taking the gun/gun case inside to try out some laser grips in the gun store. I had previously gone inside to ask if they minded if I brought my Beretta in. I then went out to my car, got the case, and I was about to bring the gun case inside.

At that moment, as I was leaving the passenger side of my vehicle, a group of 5 guys approached me, and 1 came at me directly. I knew that he was going to grab the case and run... All I had on me was a Keltec 32 in my pocket at the time. I cursed myself for having ONLY that tiny gun when I was in a situation where I thought I might have to use it.

I looked at him and inside of going TOWARDS him to get to the store (he was in my way at the time), I went the opposite direction, jumped down about 4 or 5 feet to another level in the parking lot.... He was almost on me at the time. I then jogged a little (I can't run because of my knee), and he gave up and turned around right after I jumped (he was on the side of my car at that point - right where I was before I jumped). He then rejoined the others and they kept walking out of the parking lot.

I mentioned it to the store when I got in, and they turned on a monitor and checked their outside camera system. But, the 5 guys could not be located.

Anyway - after that day, I sold that Keltec 32. I actually switched to a 45 ACP carry gun for a little while. But now, I don't really want a mouse gun again. I stick to 9mm. No more mouse guns for normal carry. I do have a Ruger 380 LCP. Which, to me, is better than a 32. But, I do not usually use it.

Really only two questions here.

.25 ACP instead of 9x19? No.

.25 ACP instead of no gun? Yes.

I really don't understand the disagreement.

All of this mouse gun talk has got me considering one for a weak side emergency back up pocket carry.

I conceal a full size with 13 to 17 rounds no problem and I’m not trying to save the world because it’s more than 6 rounds. I know previous posts were not aimed directly at me but I can easily conceal a full size for 16 hours a day so why down size?

There have been a number of incidents where the primary hand gets injured. If I can easily and safely pocket carry a mouse gun on my weak side, I see no harm in having it daily. I would practice draw and shoot weak hand only. I would think a mouse gun as a back up would be more effective in most situations as opposed to a switchblade?

Hartkopf said:

All of this mouse gun talk has got me considering one for a weak side emergency back up pocket carry.

I conceal a full size with 13 to 17 rounds no problem and I’m not trying to save the world because it’s more than 6 rounds. I know previous posts were not aimed directly at me but I can easily conceal a full size for 16 hours a day so why down size?

There have been a number of incidents where the primary hand gets injured. If I can easily and safely pocket carry a mouse gun on my weak side, I see no harm in having it daily. I would practice draw and shoot weak hand only. I would think a mouse gun as a back up would be more effective in most situations as opposed to a switchblade?

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I don't think it's a bad idea (assuming it's legal in your state). I routinely carry an LCP in my right hip pocket. I can draw it with the left hand if necessary.

I will be out today, just like every Wed and every weekend shooting my Micro 9mm's and my trusty 380. And having a wonderful time. Here is the latest one I purchased just recently. My third Beretta Pico. Will also be shooting the LCR22 and LCR9mm. I bought this Pico to get the Matte finish. Actually like the grip color, conceals well. Love how well the Pico performs.

Hartkopf said:

All of this mouse gun talk has got me considering one for a weak side emergency back up pocket carry.

I conceal a full size with 13 to 17 rounds no problem and I’m not trying to save the world because it’s more than 6 rounds. I know previous posts were not aimed directly at me but I can easily conceal a full size for 16 hours a day so why down size?

There have been a number of incidents where the primary hand gets injured. If I can easily and safely pocket carry a mouse gun on my weak side, I see no harm in having it daily. I would practice draw and shoot weak hand only. I would think a mouse gun as a back up would be more effective in most situations as opposed to a switchblade?

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We are basically on the same page here, with the smaller gun being a back up to the larger gun.

Im not trying to save the world, or be a cop either, I just prefer to use what gives me the best chance at anything that might, unfortunately, come my way. Not just a few scenairos I might always win in my mind.

Having a back up is a sensible thing, using a back up as a primary, just doesnt seem to be that sensible to me, not intentionally anyway.

Obviously, others here seem to have a contrary opinion there.

I would love to see more pics of everyone's small barrel pistols and revolvers. Keep em flowing.

After reading this thread, I just can't shake the feeling that I need to go wash my juggling balls.

It'll probably wake me up better than a couple cups of coffee.

I ought to go to the range and fire some rounds through a hi-cap mouse gun instead.

View attachment 883982

Whats "small"? You always seem to have an ever changing opinion.

Something like this....

or these...



or this.....



or are these more appropriate?

chicharrones said:

After reading this thread, I just can't shake the feeling that I need to go wash my juggling balls.

It'll probably wake me up better than a couple cups of coffee.

I probably ought to go to the range and fire some rounds through a hi-cap mouse gun instead.

View attachment 883982

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LOL, The ultimate insanity!

Michael Tinker Pearce said:

View attachment 883677
Let's face it, a .25 auto is nobody's idea of a great combat handgun, and few people even regard it as an acceptable primary EDC. But I have encountered rare situations where my wife's Colt Junior (which she bought because it's adorable and fun to shoot) was the most reasonable compromise between carrying a gun and being unarmed. While of distinctly limited utility it is certainly better than nothing!
End rant.

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I will tell you and your wife......that Colt Junior is a damn good-looking gun. I want one.

My one major recollection of the appearance of a .25 auto in fiction is the Cold War thriller, THE SECRET WAYS, by Alistair MacLean. In it, an intrepid British secret agent is fleeing the Hungarian police but gets cornered. He's prepared to shoot it out with his 6.35mm Lilliput. He knows it's tiny, and the conditions are horrible (snowstorm) -- but he's confident of his ability to place 10 out of 10 shots on a target the size of a human hand at 20 paces, so he thinks he can take them. The only thing that forces his surrender is when he realizes the police are accompanied by a pair of Dobermans.

My other reflection on the .25 ACP involves some email conversation I had with Joe Zambone (R.I.P.), the creator of the Magsafe round. Man... This was back in the Prodigy days, if anyone remembers that platform! Anyway, Mr. Zambone waxed ecstatic on the performance he was able to extract from the .25 version of the Magsafe -- had something to do with the form factor of the bullet, the propellants, etc., all coming together in an ideal environment to create the right fusion of velocity and penetration. He lamented that he was never able to get the right combination of effects in any .32 he attempted.

At the time of this conversation, he had already sold off his rights to the Magsafe company, so I guess he had no reason to B.S. me in any way. Not that I had any reason to doubt him otherwise. He did bemoan about what the people who took over Magsafe were doing to the quality of his brainchild, and said the rounds weren't as good after he left.

I had bought a couple packs of the Zambone-era .25 Magsafes for my Beretta Jetfire, but was never able to get the rounds to feed reliably in my particular pistol. Mr. Zambone advised carefully shaving down the feed lips of my magazine to see if that didn't resolve the issue. This was back in the days when internet purchases weren't as easy, and I didn't feel like hassling with a bunch of Jetfire magazines, and I put the project on the back-burner (never went back to it).

It was shortly after that conversation that I heard Mr. Zambone had tragically perished in a motorcycle accident in Australia. He seemed like a truly nice gent, and generous with his time to respond to my inquiries.

Wherever he is, it might tickle him to know that I have one surviving .25 ACP Magsafe in my inventory. It's in the pipe of my Beretta Jetfire, which still occasionally gets tucked in my pocket when I go out to rake the leaves or otherwise putter around in the yard.

94045 said:

I know 68 and.209 shootings are not enough. That said if you look at 9mm, .40 and .45 the failure to stop numbers are a lot closer. I don't believe the increased failure to stop numbers for .25 ACP are an anomaly but you are free to view it however you like.

I realize that I have some confirmation bias going on in that it shows what I've suspected. .25 ACP is not worthless but it's less effective than a major caliber.

The technically correct answer is "We don't know because adequate studies have not been done on real life self defense shootings".

Essentially we are all just arguing opinion and bias.
.

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My reality is ,I can and do practice with my "pocket gun" at the range.

One of my pocket guns [ yes that means its a BUG ] is a .25 Beretta [ yes there are too many others to list ].

The practice is the same, I draw and do a full magazine dump [ 10 rounds ] into the head/face target at 'bad breath distance' [ to borrow from a regular here ].

I simply cannot imagine who or what I would hit with that many rounds and that fast = to not have the desired results ,that would be that I am still alive .

Kleanbore said:

That doesn't make anything in it valid.

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Sure it does like every other study it shows there are no absolutes. And there's really nothing in any study that disputes more damage tends to increase odds of rapid incapacitation.

Kleanbore said:

Sure it does. The small data sample makes it invalid.

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Invalid is to strong a term. It is incomplete. More data needs to be gathered.

People have to make decisions based on incomplete evidence every day. Ideally you can put together enough information from incomplete sources to form a reasonably sound decision.

The alternative is to ignore all the information you do have and flip a coin.

Kleanbore said:

Sure it does. The small data sample makes it invalid.

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Hogwash you only need a sample of exactly ONE to disprove an absolute.