2A Sanctuaries & Constitutionality

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Craig_AR

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There is a tremendously informative thread right now addressing how and when and why any law might be declared unconstitutional at
Legal Question for one of the MOD lawyers...
That topic intersects with the hot topic of 2nd Amendment Sanctuaries in Virginia, being tracked in the primary thread
Virginia's next move
with supplemental information and comments in
Important: VCDL statement about Lobby
and
VDCL/GOA Re: VA AG 2A Sanctuary Opinion

My understanding of the situation is that the 2A Sanctuary counties and towns are not declaring intent to break future laws, simply that they will not expend their resources to enforce possible future gun control laws they consider to be unconstitutional. Following the Legal Question thread, I believe they are saying that they foresee such laws to be declared unconstitutional by proper judicial authority once passed and properly challenged in court. In the meantime, they will use available prosecutorial discretion and not try to enforce those laws.

Implications of the Governor and Virginia Attorney General seeking judicial sanction against such 2A Sanctuary sheriffs and prosecutors will add another layer to the complex topic of both injunctions and determinations of unconstitutionality.

I would appreciate comment on this thought by moderators Frank Ettin and Spats McGee, both of whom have been super helpful in the Legal Question... thread.
 
As I understand it, and i could be wrong, they have introduced a bill that would cause the counties to actually break the law if they did not enforce future gun laws.

Am i correct or not?
 
As I understand it, and i could be wrong, they have introduced a bill that would cause the counties to actually break the law if they did not enforce future gun laws.

Am i correct or not?
Yes, I think I read that one of the recently proposed bills does try to make non-compliance by local officials a criminal offense. I am still searching the legislature information system to see if it has been introduced. It is far too early to have a feel do whether such a ill-concieved proposal will even make it out of committee. If I find a relevant reference Is will link it in this thread.
 
Generally, if a public official does not take action as required by their office, that constitutes nonfeasance, which may be criminal depending on the situation.
 
The Virginia legislature goes back into session on Wednesday 9 January 2020.

No bill on any topic has been formally introduced yet.

Actually there is a process for pre-filing bills so they can be assigned to committees, allowing the legislature and their committees to hit the ground running on January 9.
There have been quite a few bills related to firearms proposed for the 2020 session, and submitted in this formal introduction process. These are listed on the official Virginia Legislative Information System site at
https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+lst+ALL
That is the site I was searching for the reported proposed bill forcing local jurisdictions to enforce state laws. I still have not found that one.

Many below seem to be duplicates, at least by title.
Note that not all are anti-gun. The bulk of those here are Senate Bills.

Here are some I spotted:
HB 2 Firearm transfers; criminal history record information checks, penalty.
HB 9 Firearms; reporting those lost or stolen, civil penalty.
HB 78 Firearms; purchase, possession, and transporting following certain convictions.
HB 144 Springfield Model 1855 Rifle-Musket; designating as the official firearm of the Commonwealth.
HB 159 Protective orders; prohibited contact; remote control of appliance, etc., by electronic device.
HB 161 Carrying a concealed handgun; permit not required.
HB 192 Firearm purchases; proof of demonstration of competence with a firearm.
SB 12 Firearm transfers; criminal history record information checks, penalty.
SB 14 Trigger activators; prohibition, penalty.
SB 15 Weapons; carrying into building owned or leased by the Commonwealth, penalty.
SB 16 Assault firearms and certain firearm magazines; prohibiting sale, transport, etc., penalties.
SB 18 Firearms; criminal history record information checks, age requirement, penalty.
SB 22 Handguns; limitation on purchases, penalty.
SB 35 Firearms, etc.; permitted events.
SB 51 Carrying a concealed handgun; consumption of alcohol in a public park, penalty.
SB 64 Paramilitary activities; penalty.
SB 67 Firearms; reporting those lost or stolen, civil penalty.
SB 69 Handguns; limitation on purchases, penalty.
SB 70 Firearm transfers; criminal history record information check, penalty.
SB 71 Firearms; possession on school property.
SB 76 Protective orders; possession of firearms, penalty
SB 82 Protective order; violation of order, armed with firearm or other deadly weapon.
SB 83 Firearms; brandishing, etc., at a law-enforcement officer, penalty.
SB 85 Stolen firearms; penalties.
SB 86 Firearms; use or display while committing felony, penalty.
SB 88 Discharging firearm; penalty.
SB 89 Protective orders; violation of order while armed with firearm or other deadly weapon, etc
SB 144 Protective orders; issuance upon convictions for certain felonies, penalty.
SB 145 Protective orders; violations, penalty.
 
Lets arrest the lawyers that plea deal crimes committed with a fire arm instead of enforcing the mandatory prison sentence required by federal law.
Plea deals are a necessity or the courts would be so clogged up nothing would ever be adjudicated.

In any case the mandatory sentences apply to the crimes one is convicted of or pleads guilty to, not to some crime one might have been charged with.
 
Until the legislature of the Commonwealth of Virginia passes a law that violates the Constitution of the Commonwealth or the United States, this is all Jesuitical naval gazing.

Jurisdictions regularly perform acts, pass laws, and write regulations that courts of various descriptions later find "illegal". A number of states currently violate federal drug laws with impunity. Many jurisdictions flaunt their violation of federal immigration laws. In my opinion, many jurisdictions violate the prohibition on the government infringing on the right of individuals to keep and bear arms today.

Life isn't "fair". Government isn't "just". Those with power will do what they can. The People must do what they must.
 
Until the legislature of the Commonwealth of Virginia passes a law that violates the Constitution of the Commonwealth or the United States, this is all Jesuitical naval gazing.

Jurisdictions regularly perform acts, pass laws, and write regulations that courts of various descriptions later find "illegal".

I have to disagree on the navel gazing opinion (although, given the environment in Norfolk and Newport News, there is quite a lot to naval gazing that happens in Virginia). The danger is that until a successful court challenge that results in a settled ruling of un-Constitutionality, that the Commonwealth will work to enforce the laws. Preparing to respond for likely future actions, to include research on when and how to challenge the law, is appropriate. With regard to gun potential confiscations, individuals should plan how they intend to respond (surrender, hide, move guns out of state, resist, etc.), and members and leaders of various law enforcement organizations should plan on how they intend to act with regard to enforcement.
The relationship between 2A sanctuary declarations and laws that some believe will be declared un-Constitutional once challenged in court is a key to making such plans and decisions.

DocRock, I see you are in Colorado; didn't several sheriffs in rural counties also declare intention not to enforce some of the gun control laws that your Democratic state government passed?
 
I suspect that a state order to a county sheriff that is in violation of the constitutional rights of the citizens of the state is null and void on delivery. Apparently a lot of county sheriffs in Virginia believe that.

In UCMJ class in basic training, I was taught that obeying an lawful order could be a war crime and you could be justified in mutiny - refusal to obey an unlawful order. I see the same principle in action with these county sheriffs: they are mutinying against unlawful orders.

Virginia sheriffs tend to answer to their constituents. These Virginia law makers are answering to their paymaster Michael Bloomberg.
 
We will have to see too what versions actual make it through the Legislature as well. The proposed bills will hopefully get a little weaker. Maybe even one or two bills will not pass at all.

After that we will have to see just how far the Governor and AG will take it, as well as how many of the 2A county Sheriffs and Prosecutors will actually NOT enforce the new laws.

Right now it seems there are alot of threats and scare tactics being thrown by both sides.

I am sure that someone will file suit against the state for being unconstitutional as well. However as I have said many times before, that process will take 3-5 years to be resolved. Maybe an injunction will be put into place.
 
After that we will have to see just how far the Governor and AG will take it, as well as how many of the 2A county Sheriffs and Prosecutors will actually NOT enforce the new laws.

I sure would like to see what Loudoun County Sheriff Mike Chapman has to say on the topic. Either I missed a VCDL communique or Mr. Chapman is keeping quiet.
 
I sure would like to see what Loudoun County Sheriff Mike Chapman has to say on the topic. Either I missed a VCDL communique or Mr. Chapman is keeping quiet.

Exactly my point. Many of the so called 2A counties have sheriffs &/or prosecutors that have not officially signed on and said they would risk arrest and prosecution by the states AG if they refuse to enforce the new laws.

Even then citizens still risk arrest and prosecution by state level police and AG as well. I am not for sure how many state level law enforcement entities there are in VA but in Texas there are at least two, The Texas Rangers, and the state highway patrol.

Because of this and any of the poor souls that live in areas that aren’t 2A sanctuaries, or even in those that claim to be but will still enforce, I am afraid what will happen in the interim to gun owners who keep them. They won’t be able to leave their property or use them without possible arrest and confiscation.
 
Correct me if I am wrong. While a county may pass a 2A sanctuary resolution for the county, that does NOT obligate the county Sheriff or County prosecutors from enforcing the new anti gun laws. Is that correct?

I do know many of the sheriffs and prosecutors from many of these 2A counties have vowed not to enforce these laws, our question is, which counties have sheriffs and prosecutors of 2A counties that have not agreed to follow their counties 2A resolution? If any. Hopefully they will all follow their counties 2A resolution.

Have any of the 2A county Sherrifs and Prosecutors said they would vow to continue not enforcing these laws even if they were threatened by the State AG of arrest and prosecution?

I have seen traffic incidents violation stops to accident incidents where both the state police and sherrifs have been involved.

I wonder if in either type of incident, where both Leo’s have responded, if so called illegal gun items are found what course of action will be sought and by which Leo. I could easily see a Sherriff or deputy getting themselves into trouble with the State Police.

Which in my opinion would be all the reason to never have an illegal gun item in your car!
 
Correct me if I am wrong. While a county may pass a 2A sanctuary resolution for the county, that does NOT obligate the county Sheriff or County prosecutors from enforcing the new anti gun laws. Is that correct?

In general, correct. The County Boards of Supervisory generally do not direct the activities of the Sheriff's office (which is a separate elected position) in Virginia. The exceptions are places where there are Police Departments, which are subordinate to the supervisors.

Example: Fairfax and Arlington counties, where the primary LE agency is the county police department, while the sheriff's office is "relegated" to operating the detention centers, providing courthouse security, and serving civil process.

Loudoun County VA, which has a newly elective and highly progressive Board of Supervisors - which apparently does not like the idea of an independent sheriff's office, and is again floating the question of creating a police department that is subordinate to the BoS. For clear reasons.

I do know many of the sheriffs and prosecutors from many of these 2A counties have vowed not to enforce these laws, our question is, which counties have sheriffs and prosecutors of 2A counties that have not agreed to follow their counties 2A resolution? If any. Hopefully they will all follow their counties 2A resolution.

Several sheriff's have proactively stated they will not enforce certain laws, and will not support other agencies if enforce those laws. At least one sheriff has indicated that he is willing to deputize everyone in the county, if needed - a de facto county militia. Others have more generally stated that they will not involve their deputies in enforcing these regulations. And yet others have been a bit more ... on the fence. More of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach.

Have any of the 2A county Sherrifs and Prosecutors said they would vow to continue not enforcing these laws even if they were threatened by the State AG of arrest and prosecution?

I beleive, yes, at least one has been a bit of a firebrand on that point.
 
In general, correct. The County Boards of Supervisory generally do not direct the activities of the Sheriff's office (which is a separate elected position) in Virginia. The exceptions are places where there are Police Departments, which are subordinate to the supervisors.

Example: Fairfax and Arlington counties, where the primary LE agency is the county police department, while the sheriff's office is "relegated" to operating the detention centers, providing courthouse security, and serving civil process.

Loudoun County VA, which has a newly elective and highly progressive Board of Supervisors - which apparently does not like the idea of an independent sheriff's office, and is again floating the question of creating a police department that is subordinate to the BoS. For clear reasons.



Several sheriff's have proactively stated they will not enforce certain laws, and will not support other agencies if enforce those laws. At least one sheriff has indicated that he is willing to deputize everyone in the county, if needed - a de facto county militia. Others have more generally stated that they will not involve their deputies in enforcing these regulations. And yet others have been a bit more ... on the fence. More of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach.



I beleive, yes, at least one has been a bit of a firebrand on that point.

See thats about what i thought. This action is only to send a message to politicians and Democrats everywhere that they cant push this issue to hard. Im just afraid they will force us to compromise. then in a few years push some more and make us compromise more.

So when virginia passes all these laws..... you know there will be alot of people that will just "hide" them. i really believe few will do much to get their illegal items out of the state.

Which will mean since leo's really will be enforcing the laws... many people will get arrested and many guns will get confiscated.
You will have anti-gunners turning those that they know have guns in, and of course a Leo will have to do an investigation and get a search warrant, and search dogs, etc...

Sad sad state of affairs and it wont change until SCOTUS rules, if they will even hear the case.

Theres only one case that just recently reaches SCOTUS, and they havent decided yet to hear that case. (Actually they had a conference on hearing that case yesterday, Jan 10th) We should know by the end of the month if they will hear that case.

If not the next possible case to be heard on is the two from california. which will take about 2 more years to reach SCOTUS.

Hopefully if SCOTUS does hear the Worman v Healy case and finds in our favor, then some of this Virginia laws will be overturned. but not all of them.

Cross your fingers.

However there will be a point where we will have to stop compromising!
 
I'm not a lawyer. So I just apply common sense to this instead. The same people, (liberal anti gun Democrats), who are screaming and dissing these Second Amendment Sanctuary City & State Laws, are the same one's who are supporting Sanctuary Cities for illegal invaders. (Which violate Federal immigration laws). Along with all of these supposed legalized, "Medical Marijuana Cards". (Which all violate Federal Marijuana laws).

All of this amounts to the exact same thing. States and local governments acting in defiance of Federal laws they don't like, agree with, and don't want to enforce. So they ALL have to either go or stand. You know the liberals are all going to scream bloody murder if they take away Sanctuary Cities for illegal invaders, and start arresting these people. Or else mess with their precious "Medical Marijuana" they all can't seem to live without. And in the process have the DEA close down all of these "Medical Marijuana" shops, and arrest the owners.

So in this case, they could be our biggest allies. You can't send in the DEA to bust the, "Medical Marijuana" shops, or ICE to bust the Sanctuary Cities for illegals. Unless to send in the ATF to bust the Governors, Mayors, and City Counsel members of these Second Amendment Sanctuary cities and states as well. You're either going have Federal law stand over everything else, or you don't. You can't pick and choose which one's. This isn't a fruit stand at a farmers market.
 
...You can't send in the DEA to bust the, "Medical Marijuana" shops, or ICE to bust the Sanctuary Cities for illegals. Unless to send in the ATF to bust the Governors, Mayors, and City Counsel members of these Second Amendment Sanctuary cities and states as well. You're either going have Federal law stand over everything else, or you don't. You can't pick and choose which one's. This isn't a fruit stand at a farmers market.

Nope, that's fundamentally wrong in a number of ways. (I am a lawyer; and, as I've said before, the law is non-intuitive.)

  1. Federal law always stands over everything else. The Constitution provides (Article VI, Clause 2, usually referred to as the "Supremacy Clause"):
    ...This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding....

  2. Some States have enacted laws effectively making the use of marijuana, for medical purposes and, in some cases, for recreational purposes, legal (but in some cases to some extent regulated).
    • In those States there are no state laws against the possession and use of marijuana for local or state law enforcement to enforce (as long as the possessor/user complies with state regulations, e. g., is old enough, doesn't drive under the influence, has any necessary documentation, etc.).

    • But the use and possession of marijuana remains illegal under federal law. Because of the Supremacy Clause, federal law enforcement is free to enforce federal marijuana laws in any State, notwithstanding conflicting, more lenient state laws.However, as a matter of general principle in the law that law enforcement/prosecutors have broad discretion to decide how to allocate and use their resources.This is usually called "prosecutorial discretion."
      • It appears that, at present, federal prosectors have a general policy not to vigorously prosecute casual marijuana use or possession in States which have legalize marijuana use, as long as state law is complied with.

      • But that is merely policy. It doesn't change the law. And it's also a matter of discretion. It can change at any time. And, there's no indication that the current federal disinclination to enforce federal marijuana laws in State which have legalized it will extend to the enforcement of federal law prohibiting possession of a firearm or ammunition by a marijuana user.

  3. On the other hand, some counties or cities have adopted immigration sanctuary policies.
    • The details of such programs can vary. Some might be supported by local legislation, and some might merely be less formal policy matters. They essentially an exercise in prosecutorial discretion and involve local decisions not to use resources to assist in the enforcement of federal immigration laws.
      • In general, the federal government may not, under the principles of federalism, to implement or assist with federal regulatory programs (Printz v. U.S., 521 U.S. 898, 117 S.Ct. 2365, 138 L.Ed.2d 914 (1997)). However, under some circumstances the federal government may "encourage" States to do so by tying certain financial benefits to such implementation/assistance.

      • Such local sanctuary policies don't change the law. Because of the Supremacy Clause, federal law enforcement is free to enforce federal immigration laws in any State, notwithstanding conflicting, local sanctuary policies.

  4. Similarly, Second Amendment Sanctuary policies are a sort of exercise in prosecutorial discretion. But if, for example, a local sheriff decides he isn't going to expend resources using his department to enforce gun control laws he doesn't like, that decision doesn't change the laws.
    • So state law is still the law, and it would be enforceable by other police agencies in the State.

    • Federal law also remains the law and may be enforced by federal law enforcement.

  5. With regard to the question of the constitutionality of a law (be it an immigration law or a gun control law or any other kind of law) the Founding Fathers in the Constitution assign the authority to decide questions regarding the meaning and application of the Constitution to the federal courts (Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
    Section 1. The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....

    Section 2. The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,...

    Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and understood what judicial power was. In fact, of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers: and of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

  6. The Supreme Court has also ruled (see Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827) and U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000)) that a statute is presumed constitutional and is valid and enforceable unless/until it is found unconstitutional by a proper court.
 
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We are largely sailing into uncharted waters here . . . . I hope the ship of state doesn't hit an ice burg.

It will be fascinating (and maybe frightening) to see how things develop in Virginia. I hope the protests on Monday the 20th are peaceful.
 
The Supreme Court has also ruled (see Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827) and U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000)) that a statute is presumed constitutional and is valid and enforceable unless/until it is found unconstitutional by a proper court.

Its this reason right here that many dont understand that when laws are passed that we feel and believe to be unconstitutional, that we still have to suffer under these laws until the courts have resolved them.

Now while an injunction can be ordered in our favor, a stay can also be issues as well.

This is the case on two cases in California. The Duncan v Beccara case where the judge issued a stay for the benefit of Beccara while the judge in the AW case v Beccara issued an injunction in our favor against Beccara. (Although delayed until a hearing on Feb 6th)

Thus here we continued to get our 2A rights violated on one case and relief on another. While both cases wait for the 9th circuit o render a decision.

Based on the median time frame of the 9th circuit court to be 22.5 months. We should not expect a decision on the Duncan case until around Feb 2021. Even later on the AW case.

As we know it can take from 3 years to sometimes as ling as 10 years to get a final ruling especially if SCOTUS gets involved and issues a cert.

This can make for a lengthy time of Haveing ones rights violated if we arent issued an injunction.

One thing to be positive about is that our courts are starting to get more conservative judges and justices appointed, with hopefully 51 more conservative judges coming to a bench near you! lol! ;)-

Hopefully that will start issuing more summary judgements and injunctions in our favor while they wait for the appeals to be processed. Then if the appeals are found in our favor if SCOTUS refuses to issue cert on those cases. We will have saved time, money, and heartache. Thats of course best case scenario.

So far in the California AW ban case with Beccara it has gone in our favor. Hopefully it will continue.

The Duncan case is a big win for us and a minor one for Beccara (The stay) now its pending in the 9th Circuit.

We have one other case Worman v Healy that is now in Limbo waiting for cert.

It is interesting to note that in both of the California cases i have mentioned. That both judges, both plaintifs as well as Beccara in both cases have all mentioned at one point or another Worman v Healy in one or more of their briefs. They also all mention that Worman v Heally is waiting on cert as well.

The Worman case i believe, i would have to double check that, has Allready been going on for about 4 years.
 
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