Selecting a Handgun for Concealed Carry

Hmm.

I started with the SIG P220. It's a great gun and I've owned nine or ten over the years. I carried it for a year and dry fired constantly. The hammer return spring broke just before a three day drive home and I had no backup gun. Fortunately, gun stores and gunsmiths aren't shy in Dallas and a sign drew me into the store. Five minutes and five dollars later, my P220 was running again. But, the lesson was learned: have two guns and gear.

I tried the Ruger SP101, Springfield Ultra Compact in 45 and Browning Hi Power 40. The Hi Power was an excellent gun. I tried a few others.

I attended my first two day defensive pistol class because my shooting had plateaued. It was eye opening. I discovered the need for more than three seven round magazines and a loader since my thumb was so sore I couldn't load the mags by the end of the second day. I switched to the Glock 23 as a result of that class.

I practiced with that Glock and the Hi-Powers for six months and repeated the class. My performance had drastically improved and I consistently passed several law enforcement qualifiers, including the Air Marshal course. Unfortunately, the sharper recoil of the 40 S&W caused severe tendonitis on long shooting days. Heavier guns, or guns with a high bore axis like the P229, tamed it enough for me to use. But, 45 ACP was my first love and I keep going back to it.

I focused upon Glocks for 15 years while dabbling in 1911's. Fast forward a few decades, nearly two dozen classes, and 100+ handguns later, I now keep everything I buy. No more horse trading; I keep buying the ones I traded off and I dearly miss that original P220. I found one from 1995 recently and had SIG refurbish it. I don't carry it, but I'm happy to have one in the safe.

Now, the "Glock 19" class and the "Big 45" dominate my collection. G19's, S&W M&P 9 Compacts, CZ P10C, 1911's in 9mm, along with compact versions, dominate my collection. Mini-9's are great too. Oddly, the S&W M&P 45 M2.0 conceals really well in the appendix position.

I've sorta moved toward thumb safety guns for appendix carry (hammers are a bonus) and bigger guns for strongside carry. I like controlling the hammer while holstering.

Learn your gear. I have found that the Milt Sparks Versa Max 2 or Criterion are about perfect for carry. However, I've learned that the magnetic snaps on the loops do not always work. Pushing the gun into the holster while wearing pants with a soft waistband causes them to disengage. So, traditional snaps are the way to go with this holster.

Appendix carry holsters require a certain set of attributes for me to successfully use. Wings or spacers are needed to tilt the butt of the gun in and a wedge tilts it back into me from the top. Holes must be placed in certain locations so I can adjust the Pull the Dot straps. Some holsters require a slight reverse cant. All body side corners and edges need to be rounded.

I have discovered JM Custom Kydex's angled appendix IWB mag holder. This allows me to carry a third magazine up front. I use Milt Sparks' S4C OWB mag holders. I learned recently that P220 and 1911 holders have the snap placed on top; I now make sure to specify the snap should be on the bottom when I order. I also use Milt Sparks IPS mag holders. However, these have only one screw securing the loop. It tends to loosen up and tilt. Keep this in mind; let it set up the way it wants and apply some blue thread locker.

I like magnum revolvers. The N-Frame is my favorite. I do have a K-Frame that I'm starting to like. But, if you have only six shots, bigger seems better to me. Carrying ammo for revolvers is more difficult to conceal. I like to carry one speed loader in front of the holster and two on the opposite side, and pocket carry a Bianchi Speed Strip in a leather holder. The Split Six style holders are not great for the N-Frame loaders and sometimes release. I have yet to find a decent solution other than moon clips (which have other problems).

I find that 9mm permits versatility in frame size. The new SIG P365 is a pocket carry game changer. The SIG M17 is a nice gun and the 21 round mag makes for fun at the range. I can see it in a police officer's holster or for open carry. STI is still king with their 27 round mags, but I've noticed capacities increasing to 20+ rounds.

The "Glock 19" has become a "class" of guns. Examples include the HK P30, HK VP9, S&W M&P 9 Compact M2.0, CZ P10C, 1911 Commander or CCO 9mm, and so forth. I think the HK P30 (or P30SK with longer mag), S&W M&P 9 Compact M2.0 and CZ P10C are the top three guns in this class. They outdo Glock, which still hasn't figured out how to relieve the area under the trigger guard properly or build controls for use. The HK P30 and P30SK Light LEM are particularly great guns because they are so well thought out. All the controls are positioned properly for right or left handed use. Reliability is excellent and better than Glock, not that it matters after thousands of rounds. The M&P and CZ are also excellent, but trail behind the HK for various reasons.

I think a solid choice for anyone is to get a Glock 19 class gun. 9x19mm with quality JHP is good enough for self-defense and duty use. But, there are some who want more power. In those cases, 45 ACP is a great caliber that offers more power than 9x19mm. This may or may not matter for a fight, but it could turn out to be useful. Shooting it is more pleasant that snappier rounds like 40 S&W, 357 SIG and 10mm. The platform matters and the 1911 seems to recoil a bit more. I really like shooting 45 ACP from the Glock 21 and 30, S&W M&P 45, and SIG P220 pistols.

I really like 44 Special and 44 Magnum for revolvers. I know 357 Magnum is good too, but people are tempted to shoot it from guns with short barrels and small frames. 44 Special seems good for "urban" use with good JHP ammo. 44 Magnum is good any time, but some shy away from it. Maybe Bill Jordan was right when he said the 44's have too much blast, but 357 Magnum seems to have as much. It's probably a training issue.

So, for now, 9x19mm, 44 Magnum/Special, and 45 ACP work for me. The Glock 19 size, or Glock 30, works best for me for concealment. The 1911/P320/M&P P220/G21 sized guns are comfortable to shoot and relatively easy to carry. I think the Glock 19 Class of handguns serves the most people well.

There's more to it than just the gun. If I see you rocking an Uncle Mike's I really don't care what's in it I know everything I need to know about your level of training and/or experience

Trunk Monkey said:

There's more to it than just the gun. If I see you rocking an Uncle Mike's I really don't care what's in it I know everything I need to know about your level of training and/or experience

Click to expand...

Im assuming a Full-Size Pistol stuffed under the belt with slide barrel stuffed in the pocket and a t-shirt over it would really tick you off.

Trunk Monkey said:

There's more to it than just the gun. If I see you rocking an Uncle Mike's I really don't care what's in it I know everything I need to know about your level of training and/or experience

Click to expand...

Exactly. Buddy spent $1k on a Colt Gov't, turns around and stuffs it in a generic $20 nylon holster. I'm like "Dude !!! That ain't a gun you stuff in a Walmart holster !!! That's a gun you spend $100 on a leather rig for, and call it a day."
.

One of the most frighteningly competent men I know got himself a "clipdraw" on eBay. He's got a box full of custom leather to go with a safe full of custom handguns, but he still is obsessed with making that foolish little bit of steel work for him. We've all made quite a bit of fun of him, but in secret, my belief is that he's going to succeed at it. And if he decides that his next project is to make one of those idiotic nylon pouches actually function as a holster, well, I'm still not going to get into an argument with him. If nothing else, I'm sure that being beaten to death with a nylon-covered Wilson Combat is an unpleasant way to go.

TL;DR: I'm a true believer in the adage that it's the man, not the gun.

94045 said:

Im assuming a Full-Size Pistol stuffed under the belt with slide barrel stuffed in the pocket and a t-shirt over it would really tick you off.

Click to expand...

It isn't for me to get ticked off or not about how you carry your gun.

It would indicate to me that you likely had very little training and were not handling the gun safely.

The odds are it would indicate to the police that you were carrying the gun illegally.

Mr. Mosin said:

Exactly. Buddy spent $1k on a Colt Gov't, turns around and stuffs it in a generic $20 nylon holster. I'm like "Dude !!! That ain't a gun you stuff in a Walmart holster !!! That's a gun you spend $100 on a leather rig for, and call it a day."
.

Click to expand...

The point I'm trying to make was more that the Uncle Mike's are poor quality holsters. They are known to break at the most inopportune times. They have also been known to come out of your pants still attached to the gun and it is almost impossible to reholster one-handed with one of them. They also have zero retention. Speaking of somebody who's actually had somebody tried to take my gun retention is a big deal

If I see somebody walking around with an Uncle Mike's I assume that they have never used that holster in a reputable training class or a real self defense situation

Trunk Monkey said:

The point I'm trying to make was more that the Uncle Mike's are poor quality holsters. They are known to break at the most inopportune times. They have also been known to come out of your pants still attached to the gun and it is almost impossible to reholster one-handed with one of them. They also have zero retention. Speaking of somebody who's actually had somebody tried to take my gun retention is a big deal

If I see somebody walking around with an Uncle Mike's I assume that they have never used that holster in a reputable training class or a real self defense situation

Click to expand...

Quoted for emphasis. Truth. I'd assign more credibility to the guy with a cheap handgun in a decent holster than vice versa.

You absolutely cannot adequately do any training with a garbage holster. And if you're going to carry regularly without any training, shame on you. For those of you that think that it's simply all about having a gun on your person, regardless of your carry mode, we probably will never be able to change your mind, only hope that you're never in a situation where you luckily survive to re-think your carry mode.

I really like minimalist holsters, I laugh when I see leather down here. I know "that guy" is looking at hours of corrosion control. Kydex is king here in SW Florida.

Labguy47 said:

I really like minimalist holsters, I laugh when I see leather down here. I know "that guy" is looking at hours of corrosion control. Kydex is king here in SW Florida.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure no one specified that the holes were had to be leather, I know I Didn't.

What was specified was a quality holster.

May I suggest a separate thread for "Selecting a holster for concealed carry" rather than turning this into a leather vs. Kydex thread.

But for the VM-2 (which I've used in competition), if worn at 3:30 or 3:00 (not all the way behind the hip), it's worked for me under stress and the rigid mouth is entirely capable of facilitation one-hand re-holstering. In my opinion, the most superior IWB ever invented. Yes, IWB is a compromise which we adopt primarily for better concealment (which is why I carry almost exclusively OWB, perhaps sacrificing ideal concealment.

And for the Florida guy who "laughs" at leather, bah. I've worn leather in hot humid (jungle) climates for long periods with no issues IF I take care of the holster. Horsehide (which both Kramer and Sparks use a lot) holds up fine to sweat and humidity if cared-for; when I lived in Florida, I didn't worry about hours of "corrosion control" because I took my handgun out of the holster each day, wiped down and air-dried both. Not rocket science, doesn't require laboratory testing either.

All this said, a quality Kydex holster can be perfect for carry and I have several that I've found quite worthy.

Old Dog said:

May I suggest a separate thread for "Selecting a holster for concealed carry" rather than turning this into a leather vs. Kydex thread.

But for the VM-2 (which I've used in competition), if worn at 3:30 or 3:00 (not all the way behind the hip), it's worked for me under stress and the rigid mouth is entirely capable of facilitation one-hand re-holstering. In my opinion, the most superior IWB ever invented. Yes, IWB is a compromise which we adopt primarily for better concealment (which is why I carry almost exclusively OWB, perhaps sacrificing ideal concealment.

And for the Florida guy who "laughs" at leather, bah. I've worn leather in hot humid (jungle) climates for long periods with no issues IF I take care of the holster. Horsehide (which both Kramer and Sparks use a lot) holds up fine to sweat and humidity if cared-for; when I lived in Florida, I didn't worry about hours of "corrosion control" because I took my handgun out of the holster each day, wiped down and air-dried both. Not rocket science, doesn't require laboratory testing either.

All this said, a quality Kydex holster can be perfect for carry and I have several that I've found quite worthy.

Click to expand...

Not to further the holster thing, but, a couple of things.

VMII's are good holsters, and other than the sweat issues, I never had a problem using one. I think I still have one around too.

There are a lot of decent leather holsters out there, and if they fit your lifestyle, you probably wont go wrong with them. They do have some downsides to them, and overpaying for them, is one. They generally arent worth what you pay for one.

Ive always preferred carrying IWB, and now AIWB, and the best thing that ever happened with those type holsters, was kydex. Up until then fighting rust was a never ending thing, especially in the summers. Kydex, and hard chrome and tennifer helped alleviate that, and by about 99%.

Ive always worked outdoors in an active and often, a pretty harsh environment, my whole life. Our mid to late summer "nice days" here, are usually in the upper 90's with high humidity. You sweat standing still, and thats at 9am.

My leather holsters, once wet, did not dry out overnight (they never dried out all summer), and were constantly soaked in sweat. Even using two holsters and rotating through them, didnt solve the drying issue. Not even close. I tried anything and everything I could think of to try and waterproof them, and to no avail. And Im not talking cheap holsters here either. The last two I used on a regular basis, were both Galco Royal Guard horsehide, at around $75 a pop at the time. I used them for a number of years, and usually bought a new one each year and chucked the worse of the two Id been using the year before.

My first kydex holster was a Blade Tech IWB. From the day I got it, I used it daily for over 10 years, and I still have it. It cost me about $50. Its still as serviceable as the day I bought it too. I never saw that kind of longevity with a leather holster.

Kydex is also easier on the gun and you as well. Wet/damp leather on bare skin is like fine emery, and quicly rubs you raw. The chemicals in some holsters, just add to that burn. Kydex just slides across wet skin with really no irritation.

The kydex holsters usually only wear on the guns finish at a couple of contact points. Leather has a lot more surface contact and wears the guns finish a lot more overall. Leather also embeds dirt and debris, which isnt usually easily cleaned or removed and accelerates finish wear. And, you have the rust issues as well.

Kydex holsters can be rinsed out under the kitchen tap, shaken out and quickly air or towel-dried. They can also be easily blown out at the end of the day with an air can. Rust isnt generally an issue.

The real issue, you have to decide first on the gun you plan on carrying, then work on how to carry it. Switching around to various types of guns and holsters will only muddy the waters. Find what works for you and stick to it and don't worry too much about "printing". I often CC with a CZ PCR in a "Sticky" holster IWB. With shirt untucked or light jacket on, you can't see it.

Case in point, because I CC, I can usually spot the new CC guy just by how he stands, behaves, and moves. Whatever you decide on get comfortable with it, your attitude and behavior will scream "I'm carrying!" if you're not completely at ease. For example, for an experiment, I CCed a G21 (hardly a small gun!) for a while and with a light windbreaker on, nobody made me or commented. During that time, I was literally right next to people who had every opportunity to make me. Again, the point is, choose a "system" learn it, get good with the gun, get comfortable with the carry and the vast majority of guns and holsters can be made to work. Now if you have to go "deep cover" smaller gun and holster become an entirely different subject.

Trunk Monkey said:

It isn't for me to get ticked off or not about how you carry your gun.

It would indicate to me that you likely had very little training and were not handling the gun safely.

The odds are it would indicate to the police that you were carrying the gun illegally.



The point I'm trying to make was more that the Uncle Mike's are poor quality holsters. They are known to break at the most inopportune times. They have also been known to come out of your pants still attached to the gun and it is almost impossible to reholster one-handed with one of them. They also have zero retention. Speaking of somebody who's actually had somebody tried to take my gun retention is a big deal

If I see somebody walking around with an Uncle Mike's I assume that they have never used that holster in a reputable training class or a real self defense situation

Click to expand...

I actually got a "Bulldog" nylon holster with my .45 Shield (bunch of cheap swag came with it) and it had a thumb break. I didn't realize they called it that because it broke off the first time you tried to use it. It does retain a Full-Size Semi-Auto pretty well without it. I occasionally use it as as a simple range expedient holster. Easy on/off and provides an expedient place to store a second handgun. Didn't realize I was being graded on that.

Uncle Mike's used to make a shoulder holster that worked fairly well for some long barreled large caliber revolvers used for hunting applications. Used to be pretty common to see them. I have never used any of their other products.

94045,

You brought up a good point about a qualifying course. The one that I show friends and family and recommend they practice with is a reduced version of the qualification course my agency uses.
For use with small guns that are harder to control or shoot because of small grips, light weight, small sights or recoil, as well as limited ammo capacity (think 5 shot .38 Special revolvers), I limit the range to 10 yards and 25 rounds.


You can use practice ammo, as long as it matches the ballistics of your carry ammo (no .38 Special wadcutters if you carry +P ammo).
1. 5 rounds at 10 yards using a 2 handed grip and starting from double action if using a double/single action semi auto
2. At 7 yards, 2 rounds double tap followed by a 3 round triple tap using a 2 handed grip.
3. At 7 yards, 2 rounds, first to center mass, second to the head followed by 3 rounds, two to center mass, then 1 to the head (this is a failure to stop drill where center mass shots did not stop the threat).
4. At 3 or 5 yards (some ranges do not allow shots as close as 3 yards), 5 rounds using strong hand only.
5. At 3 or 5 yards, 5 rounds using only the weak hand.

Use a standard silhouette target with rings so that you can score it. Try for at least a score of 100 out of a possible 125. If you can shoot .38 Special,148 grain wadcutters and get a score of 112, you are better off with wadcutters than with +P 158 grain hollow points which you can only shoot a score in the 80 to 90 range. It will be the hits to the vital area (usually around the center mass area or to the head that will stop a threat.

Make sure the gun fits the need. If you want a gun for your home, then larger is usually better since it will have softer recoil with the same ammo and you may be able to mount a useful accessory like a light or laser. My house gun is a BERETTA M9A3 because the Vertec style grip is easier for me to control and shoot than the standard rounded BERETTA 92 grip. I also attached a 300 lumen light to the rail. NOTE: adding accessories like a light makes the gun both heavier and more muzzle heavy, changing the balance, so try it at the range to avoid problems.
This is a poor concealment gun, even without the light. It is about the size and bulk of a 1911. For concealed carry, I use a gun that is less effective, but more concealable, a GLOCK 42. A very concealable gun that I can shoot almost as well as a mid size 9m.m. because of the combination of good sights (mine has night sites), trigger and a grip just large enough for me to get a good hold on and makes it very controllable. Of course, I would rather have the M9A3 if I knew I was at risk of a fight or my agency issue gun, an H&K P2000. but both are hard to conceal in Florida due to the warm weather.


You may even want to go to a smaller caliber if it allows you to shoot better.
I have found large .380ACP pistols like the BERETTA 84/85, SIG 232, CZ 83 or S&W EZ can shoot very well for people who are challenged by recoil, though some will have a problem racking a slide. Some of these guns also have a much larger ammo capacity.
For a small frame.38 Special like the alloy frame S&W J-frames and CHARTER ARMS, I like standard pressure rounds like the WINCHESTER Defend 130 grain jhp or HORNADY 110 grain FTX (standard pressure, not +P) to be easier to control in small frame guns which usually have small grips.
If you can qualify with a +P round, then good, use +P ammo, but you must have a round you can control in order to score effective hits.
I would feel well armed with a 4 inch barreled medium frame .38 Special like my S&W model 15 when loaded with +P ammo, but for the same size, I can carry a .357 magnum RUGER Security Six and occasionally do. But medium frame guns are harder to conceal and will not work for pocket or ankle carry.

Good luck with your choices,

Jim
,

golden said:

94045,

You brought up a good point about a qualifying course. The one that I show friends and family and recommend they practice with is a reduced version of the qualification course my agency uses.
For use with small guns that are harder to control or shoot because of small grips, light weight, small sights or recoil, as well as limited ammo capacity (think 5 shot .38 Special revolvers), I limit the range to 10 yards and 25 rounds.

This drill is a shorter range version of the drill my agency uses. For defensive purposes and opposed to law enforcement, most shooting will be done at close range.

If you can pass this drill using whatever caliber or gun, then that is what you should carry. If you pass this and can find a more powerful or capable gun that you can either conceal or place in a place like your home or car, you should try it to see if you can upgrade your ability​

You can use practice ammo, as long as it matches the ballistics of your carry ammo (no .38 Special wadcutters if you carry +P ammo).
1. 5 rounds at 10 yards using a 2 handed grip and starting from double action if using a double/single action semi auto
2. At 7 yards, 2 rounds double tap followed by a 3 round triple tap using a 2 handed grip.
3. At 7 yards, 2 rounds, first to center mass, second to the head followed by 3 rounds, two to center mass, then 1 to the head (this is a failure to stop drill where center mass shots did not stop the threat).
4. At 3 or 5 yards (some ranges do not allow shots as close as 3 yards), 5 rounds using strong hand only.
5. At 3 or 5 yards, 5 rounds using only the weak hand.

Use a standard silhouette target with rings so that you can score it. Try for at least a score of 100 out of a possible 125. If you can shoot .38 Special,148 grain wadcutters and get a score of 112, you are better off with wadcutters than with +P 158 grain hollow points which you can only shoot a score in the 80 to 90 range. It will be the hits to the vital area (usually around the center mass area or to the head that will stop a threat.

Jim

Click to expand...

I like the abbreviated close range qualifying course. I assume you are referring to the B27 Silhouette.

How do I score head shots when the course of fire requires it? Any Headshots within the black count?

First, a gun must work reliably.

Second, you must be able to hit what you are shooting at.

Third, you must be able to hit what you are shooting at quickly and repititively.

Fourth, consider caliber.

golden said:

94045,

You brought up a good point about a qualifying course. The one that I show friends and family and recommend they practice with is a reduced version of the qualification course my agency uses.
For use with small guns that are harder to control or shoot because of small grips, light weight, small sights or recoil, as well as limited ammo capacity (think 5 shot .38 Special revolvers), I limit the range to 10 yards and 25 rounds.

This drill is a shorter range version of the drill my agency uses. For defensive purposes and opposed to law enforcement, most shooting will be done at close range.

If you can pass this drill using whatever caliber or gun, then that is what you should carry. If you pass this and can find a more powerful or capable gun that you can either conceal or place in a place like your home or car, you should try it to see if you can upgrade your ability​

You can use practice ammo, as long as it matches the ballistics of your carry ammo (no .38 Special wadcutters if you carry +P ammo).
1. 5 rounds at 10 yards using a 2 handed grip and starting from double action if using a double/single action semi auto
2. At 7 yards, 2 rounds double tap followed by a 3 round triple tap using a 2 handed grip.
3. At 7 yards, 2 rounds, first to center mass, second to the head followed by 3 rounds, two to center mass, then 1 to the head (this is a failure to stop drill where center mass shots did not stop the threat).
4. At 3 or 5 yards (some ranges do not allow shots as close as 3 yards), 5 rounds using strong hand only.
5. At 3 or 5 yards, 5 rounds using only the weak hand.

Use a standard silhouette target with rings so that you can score it. Try for at least a score of 100 out of a possible 125. If you can shoot .38 Special,148 grain wadcutters and get a score of 112, you are better off with wadcutters than with +P 158 grain hollow points which you can only shoot a score in the 80 to 90 range. It will be the hits to the vital area (usually around the center mass area or to the head that will stop a threat.

Make sure the gun fits the need. If you want a gun for your home, then larger is usually better since it will have softer recoil with the same ammo and you may be able to mount a useful accessory like a light or laser. My house gun is a BERETTA M9A3 because the Vertec style grip is easier for me to control and shoot than the standard rounded BERETTA 92 grip. I also attached a 300 lumen light to the rail. NOTE: adding accessories like a light makes the gun both heavier and more muzzle heavy, changing the balance, so try it at the range to avoid problems.
This is a poor concealment gun, even without the light. It is about the size and bulk of a 1911. For concealed carry, I use a gun that is less effective, but more concealable, a GLOCK 42. A very concealable gun that I can shoot almost as well as a mid size 9m.m. because of the combination of good sights (mine has night sites), trigger and a grip just large enough for me to get a good hold on and makes it very controllable. Of course, I would rather have the M9A3 if I knew I was at risk of a fight or my agency issue gun, an H&K P2000. but both are hard to conceal in Florida due to the warm weather.


You may even want to go to a smaller caliber if it allows you to shoot better.
I have found large .380ACP pistols like the BERETTA 84/85, SIG 232, CZ 83 or S&W EZ can shoot very well for people who are challenged by recoil, though some will have a problem racking a slide. Some of these guns also have a much larger ammo capacity.
For a small frame.38 Special like the alloy frame S&W J-frames and CHARTER ARMS, I like standard pressure rounds like the WINCHESTER Defend 130 grain jhp or HORNADY 110 grain FTX (standard pressure, not +P) to be easier to control in small frame guns which usually have small grips.
If you can qualify with a +P round, then good, use +P ammo, but you must have a round you can control in order to score effective hits.
I would feel well armed with a 4 inch barreled medium frame .38 Special like my S&W model 15 when loaded with +P ammo, but for the same size, I can carry a .357 magnum RUGER Security Six and occasionally do. But medium frame guns are harder to conceal and will not work for pocket or ankle carry.

Good luck with your choices,

Jim
,

Click to expand...

Any time constraints?

When you are nineteen years of age and issued a 1911A1 and your are left-handed you learn to be adaptive. When my enlistment ended handguns were not part of my future and I had lost interest in hunting. As life would have it a incident occurred that brought me full circle back to handguns. Thus, I chose the S&W Combat Masterpiece AKA M15-38Spl. Later on we did include semiautomatic automatic pistols which were semi amberdictrous being the safety the item of importance.

As the is written my EDC is a S&W Shield 9x19mm with the (8Rd) capacity magazine. Being pragmatic it is going to be good enough or it isn't going to be good enough, but that's the way its going to be. I don't do the gun rotation thing. Should a backup weapon be employed that would be a S&W M640-38Spl.

Armored farmer said:

The right holster makes so much difference in comfortable carry.
With a new holster choice, I'm carrying my very first ccw again.
Sp101.

Click to expand...

What is it? I have not yet found one I like for mine.

PapaG said:

What is it? I have not yet found one I like for mine.

Click to expand...

It's a Desantis SofTuck.
About $30 . Amazon (I think)

Kleanbore said:

Most law enforcement shootings are defensive.

Click to expand...

I differentiate between the two myself because officer's are often obligated to attempt to close with a suspect. As a civilian I would be happy with just a break in contact. Some of the situations I see officers in (rifles at 75 yards from behind cars engine blocks) seem less likely in a civilian encounter.

On the short course that I mentioned, time is important, but to start with, hitting the target is more important. My agency uses a time limit for our qualifications, but we have all gone through training at our academy and we draw from our holsters when we shoot.
A lot of ranges will not allow that. I would try to keep each 5 round stage under 6 seconds and the other stages at 4 seconds each.
Getting hits to center mass is more important than speed or power. A .38 Special +P beats a .357 Magnum that significantly slows down your shooting because you may have to engage more than one attacker.
I now use use FEDERAL 9m.m. 124 grain HST as my housegun ammo. I can shoot with a shorter recovery time between shots than with 9m.m. +P or +P.
I was issued and required to carry +P+ 9m.m. when I first transitioned to the 9m.m. 25 years ago. Back then, the additional recoil, muzzle blast, noise and flash were all worth the effort needed to use this most effective of 9m.m. loads. Improvement in ammo have negated some of this advantage in ammo performance.
Also, I am older now and easier to shoot ammo/gun combinations improve my odds in a defense situation. However, each individual will have to determine what that combination is for themselves.
A good shot who can control a WALTHER PPK in .32ACP will be safer than a person carrying a micro9m.m. pistol that they can barely qualify with. Only hits count and the closer to your point of aim, the better.

As for head shots, I will be the first to admit, that some of mine are near the edge of the head and if you want to draw a scoring box or circle on the head of a target, that is always your option and not a bad idea.

I have my wife who is very recoil sensitive due to arthritis shooting out to 10 yards, but may shorten the course to 7 yards maximum. I want her to get and SEE THAT SHE CAN GET CENTER MASS HITS. It helps generate confidence in her ability to defend herself.
Above all shoot a course using a gun and ammo that fits your needs and not what someone else says is the latest trendy idea. Adopt to your needs. My agency decides what I carry on duty and I decide what I carry off duty. You should do the same.

Good luck with your choices,
Jim

golden said:

On the short course that I mentioned, time is important, but to start with, hitting the target is more important. My agency uses a time limit for our qualifications, but we have all gone through training at our academy and we draw from our holsters when we shoot.
A lot of ranges will not allow that. I would try to keep each 5 round stage under 6 seconds and the other stages at 4 seconds each.
Getting hits to center mass is more important than speed or power. A .38 Special +P beats a .357 Magnum that significantly slows down your shooting because you may have to engage more than one attacker.
I now use use FEDERAL 9m.m. 124 grain HST as my housegun ammo. I can shoot with a shorter recovery time between shots than with 9m.m. +P or +P.
I was issued and required to carry +P+ 9m.m. when I first transitioned to the 9m.m. 25 years ago. Back then, the additional recoil, muzzle blast, noise and flash were all worth the effort needed to use this most effective of 9m.m. loads. Improvement in ammo have negated some of this advantage in ammo performance.
Also, I am older now and easier to shoot ammo/gun combinations improve my odds in a defense situation. However, each individual will have to determine what that combination is for themselves.
A good shot who can control a WALTHER PPK in .32ACP will be safer than a person carrying a micro9m.m. pistol that they can barely qualify with. Only hits count and the closer to your point of aim, the better.

As for head shots, I will be the first to admit, that some of mine are near the edge of the head and if you want to draw a scoring box or circle on the head of a target, that is always your option and not a bad idea.

I have my wife who is very recoil sensitive due to arthritis shooting out to 10 yards, but may shorten the course to 7 yards maximum. I want her to get and SEE THAT SHE CAN GET CENTER MASS HITS. It helps generate confidence in her ability to defend herself.
Above all shoot a course using a gun and ammo that fits your needs and not what someone else says is the latest trendy idea. Adopt to your needs. My agency decides what I carry on duty and I decide what I carry off duty. You should do the same.

Good luck with your choices,
Jim

Click to expand...

golden said:

On the short course that I mentioned, time is important, but to start with, hitting the target is more important. My agency uses a time limit for our qualifications, but we have all gone through training at our academy and we draw from our holsters when we shoot.
A lot of ranges will not allow that. I would try to keep each 5 round stage under 6 seconds and the other stages at 4 seconds each.
Getting hits to center mass is more important than speed or power. A .38 Special +P beats a .357 Magnum that significantly slows down your shooting because you may have to engage more than one attacker.
I now use use FEDERAL 9m.m. 124 grain HST as my housegun ammo. I can shoot with a shorter recovery time between shots than with 9m.m. +P or +P.
I was issued and required to carry +P+ 9m.m. when I first transitioned to the 9m.m. 25 years ago. Back then, the additional recoil, muzzle blast, noise and flash were all worth the effort needed to use this most effective of 9m.m. loads. Improvement in ammo have negated some of this advantage in ammo performance.
Also, I am older now and easier to shoot ammo/gun combinations improve my odds in a defense situation. However, each individual will have to determine what that combination is for themselves.
A good shot who can control a WALTHER PPK in .32ACP will be safer than a person carrying a micro9m.m. pistol that they can barely qualify with. Only hits count and the closer to your point of aim, the better.

As for head shots, I will be the first to admit, that some of mine are near the edge of the head and if you want to draw a scoring box or circle on the head of a target, that is always your option and not a bad idea.

I have my wife who is very recoil sensitive due to arthritis shooting out to 10 yards, but may shorten the course to 7 yards maximum. I want her to get and SEE THAT SHE CAN GET CENTER MASS HITS. It helps generate confidence in her ability to defend herself.
Above all shoot a course using a gun and ammo that fits your needs and not what someone else says is the latest trendy idea. Adopt to your needs. My agency decides what I carry on duty and I decide what I carry off duty. You should do the same.

Good luck with your choices,
Jim

Click to expand...

Thank you. Right now my primary carry gun is a S&W M2.0 Compact 4" .40 S&W with Fed LE40T3. I can't really see a difference between this and a 9mm barrel with GDHP 124 +P. If there is a difference it's hidden the 1/10 second variation from one string to the next. I think I will stick with what I'm familiar with until I'm convinced I have a reason to change. I will have to change ammo eventually as it's been discontinued.