Hollow Point Penetration Ability Question

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LookAtYou

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I know that the FBI Standard for adequate self defense ammo 12-18" of penetration in properly prepared 10% ballistics gel. And from my research, the vast majority of JHP's fall into the 12-14.5" range. I also know that penetration in gel is not the same as in a body, being that I've read that just penetrating skin is equivalent to 2" in gel. So my question is, while I know that a JHP will adequately penetrate your average sized Joe, and hit vitals such as the lungs or heart, will they be able to sufficiently penetrate larger/the largest sized people as well? Such as obese people, powerlifters/bodybuilders, or just super large statured people? What about when an arm is in the way, and the JHP might have to go through bone? Will a bullet that goes 12" in gel, and possibly only 10" in a body still suffice? Thank you. I will post pics of the types of people that I am curious about.

The guy in green is Thor Bjornsson, Worlds Strongest Man winner @ 6'9 and 415 pounds. Basically all muscle. The other guy is, well....


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Well if you can run at all, number1 isn't a threat. For number 2, hope your bullet hits 15 inches, or aim for the crotch
I plan on carrying the 135 Grain Federal Hydra Shok Deep JHP (9mm), which averages right at 15" in bare gel, lol. So maybe 13" of body penetration. That green shirt guy is Thor Bjornsson, multiple time World's Strongest Man winner. If you look him up, he's basically all muscle underneath there. Athletic too.

But for the obese guy, how many inches would you estimate is between the skin of his stomach, and the middle body (like where his shoulder is, but straight down kinda)?
 
It you’re trying to stop a yeti or the incredible blob a 10mm is a better option than a 9mm.

Seriously, the first guy is irrelevant as I’m guessing he can hardly walk and any running would probably result in him falling over.

The muscle man? Yeah, denser tissue can limit penetration. But just think of him in terms of a black bear. A 9mm might be sufficient. Or it might not. Hard casts or copper monolithic bullets are probably a better choice for a big critter like him.
 
A well muscled, fit body is more resistant to bullet wounds. One of the reasons they run and work Seals and Rangers so hard.

The likelyhood of your actually needing to defend against one of these far extremes, is, IMO, very narrow, as compared to just Mr. Average.
But, as 460shooter mentioned, 10MM might be an avenue to address your concerns, as they are rated against bears.
 
I carry both FMJ and hollow points. When a threat presents itself I assess how much penetration I may need and do a quick load. When monsters appear I reach in my back pocket and pull out my .44 mag desert eagle and blast away.
 
Interesting question, but for me, the FBI has already answered this in the form of the test protocols and what's authorized for their own agents to carry. I guess I'm falling back on - if it's good enough for FBI - it's good enough for me.

Thor is still human, and anyone who seeks to perform like him has to start with suitable genetics and years of endless training with a budget to match. I don't see the dedication, intensity and drive in him showing up in street thugs :)

As for the other guy, I pity him in his suffering.
 
I prefer ammo that penetrates closer to that 18" mark for reasons such as this.

There are some pretty big dudes out there. Some of them, ex-cons who started building muscle whilst locked up.
 
I always get a kick out of FBI testing protocols. My assessment of them is they are a bunch of beaurocratic idiots. These bullets need tested in meat and bones.
 
The couch blob will be moving slowly enough that a head shot would not be that hard. The other guy gets the whole mag to slow him down, then a headshot or groin shot. Most of the time from reading I have done over the years the bad guy will most likely be thin and maybe muscled, so the odds are greater that you would be looking for 8-10” of penetration realistically. Just be polite to any strong man competitors and you should be ok.
 
Don't worry, the FBI already thought of this. It turns out, a humans vital organs aren't actually 12 to 18 inches deep in the body. That level of penetration was chosen to represent not only direct front and rear shots, but also shot from oblique angles, shots that may go through secondary body parts and even fatsos.

And of course, Zombieland Rule #2
 
I carry both FMJ and hollow points. When a threat presents itself I assess how much penetration I may need and do a quick load. When monsters appear I reach in my back pocket and pull out my .44 mag desert eagle and blast away.

Based on your last sentence, I assume you are being facetious in saying you assess the threat and then decide to load hollow points or ball. Let's hope your threat is the chubby guy in the first picture and you have lots of time to back up while selecting your load.
 
Don't worry, the FBI already thought of this. It turns out, a humans vital organs aren't actually 12 to 18 inches deep in the body. That level of penetration was chosen to represent not only direct front and rear shots, but also shot from oblique angles, shots that may go through secondary body parts and even fatsos.

And of course, Zombieland Rule #2

Are you just kind of guessing, or are you SURE? As of now, I know of no JHP that averages more than 15" in bare gel testing. HST'S, for example, max out at 14" in bare gel due to their massive expansion properties, with the 124 Gr doing 13.0". For the average sized person, sure, most JHP's will work just fine, but I dunno if a 12-14" gel penetrating JHP will still work on the guy on the bed, but maybe it will? How many inches would you estimate is between the skin of his stomach, and the middle of his torso (where his shoulder is, but straight down kinda)?
 
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The couch blob will be moving slowly enough that a head shot would not be that hard. The other guy gets the whole mag to slow him down, then a headshot or groin shot. Most of the time from reading I have done over the years the bad guy will most likely be thin and maybe muscled, so the odds are greater that you would be looking for 8-10” of penetration realistically. Just be polite to any strong man competitors and you should be ok.
I know that the odds of being attacked by either one are slim to none, but that's not the point. I'm curious as to how far something like an HST can penetrate. To me, it looks like the guy on the bed has 20 or so inches from the beginning of his stomach to the middle of his torso, but my depth perception is terrible, what would you estimate?
 
I always get a kick out of FBI testing protocols. My assessment of them is they are a bunch of beaurocratic idiots. These bullets need tested in meat and bones.
My thing is, for what sized person is 12" of gel penetration suitable for, especially of a bullet has to go through an arm. It seems like everyone just lumps the vast amount of sized of people, from 5'0 90 pound Sally, to 600 pound Jimmy, and says "Yup, FBI says only 12" needed, yuppp". My senses tingle, it's a reason there's a 12-18" range, other wise why have a ranger in the first place instead of just saying "If it goes 12" in gel, it's good to go". When does 12" of gel penetration become not enough? No way it works for everybody, but people make it sound like it, or maybe I'm wrong in my thinking?
 
I prefer ammo that penetrates closer to that 18" mark for reasons such as this.

There are some pretty big dudes out there. Some of them, ex-cons who started building muscle whilst locked up.
Yea, same for me as well. The 135 Gr Federal Hydra Shok Deep does 15" in FBI protocol bare gel testing, and that and the Winchester Ranger Bonded 147 Grain JHP offer the deepest penetration of any 9mm JHP I could find yet. I know of none that do 17-18" while expanding, consistently, not in .40 or .45 either. Quick question, how many inches would you estimate is between the outer skin of the guy on the bed's stomach, and the middle of his stomach (like where's his shoulder is, but straight down)? I'd say around 20, but my depth perception isn't the best.
 
Having the thought of how to deal with a big guy is not a bad thing but there are A LOT of young, skinny little criminals out there. Had a guy being a d*** in the store a while back. He was somewhat aggressive and I was assessing how I would defend myself if he attacked in any way. He was 5’ 10” but a super narrow target. You’ll see 10 of these guys for every 1 muscle man.

But I would still prefer deeper penetrating ammo since the skin tends to catch the bullet after going through important stuff. Shot placement becomes even more important for the skinny guy, just to hit him if he threatens your life.
 
Ok, I agree, but also in my mind, big people are the main people I would feel the need to use a gun on in self defense due to the increased danger they pose, albeit on average they won't be this big lmao. But, the guy on the bed, how many inches would you estimate is between the skin of his stomach, and the middle of his stomach (like where his shoulder is, but straight down to stomach level). My depth perception, especially online, is horrible, but I'd guess maybe 20 inches? What would you say?
 
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Are you just kind of guessing, or are you SURE?

Am I guessing that human vital organs aren't 18" deep in the body or am I guessing that the FBI created their testing criteria to account for shot penetration that involved the bullet having to travel farther than a normal front angle shot?

I am guessing at neither.

Ok. For the guy on the bed, how many inches would you estimate is between the skin of his stomach, and the middle of his stomach (like where his shoulder is, but straight down to stomach level). My depth perception, especially online, is horrible, but I'd guess maybe 20 inches? What would you say?

I would say it's completely and totally irrelevant what the depth at his stomach is. Why are you shooting him in the stomach. Shoot him about two inches down from the points of his clavicles.
 
In 9mm the Gold Dot 124gr +p has a ton of street credibility and it penetrates 16+ inches in my non scientific clear gel tests. If I carry 9mm, it’s GD.
 
Am I guessing that human vital organs aren't 18" deep in the body or am I guessing that the FBI created their testing criteria to account for shot penetration that involved the bullet having to travel farther than a normal front angle shot?

I am guessing at neither.



I would say it's completely and totally irrelevant what the depth at his stomach is. Why are you shooting him in the stomach. Shoot him about two inches down from the points of his clavicles.
I was more so referring to if you were just kind of assuming that a 12" gel penetrating bullet would be sufficient for ANYONE, including the largest/most muscular people. I know it definitely works for the vast majority, but I was curious about those 1%er's, like NBA players (Shaq, or someone similar), or strongmen competitors, etc. I mean, look at Thor, it looks as if Manny Pacquiao could literally fit inside of him, and still be less than half his thickness. Are his vitals within 10 inches, which is what I think a bullet that does 12" in gel would do in an actual body (skin penetration is equal to 2" gel)?

I mean, if 12" works for literally everyone, why make the range up to 18" anyways? My guess is that 12" (which won't be 12" in a body) is only gonna work up to a certain size of humans, but maybe I'm wrong in how I'm looking at it?
 
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I mean, if 12" works for literally everyone, why make the range up to 18" anyways? My guess is that 12" (which won't be 12" in a body) is only gonna work up to a certain size of humans, but maybe I'm wrong in how I'm looking at it?
Your thinking is right, 12" may not be enough. May not get 6" if that same bullet goes through glass or sheet metal first, or it may not expand at all and give you 30" of penetration. This is why I prefer a larger diameter, if (when) everything goes wrong it will still have diameter and weight on it's side, not as dependant on velocity to expand and will penetrate well. On paper lots of 380s will expand and penetrate sufficiently, on the street there's no telling. I'm no expert but I believe folks should carry the most powerful gun they can control and reasonably conceal. I have no use for certain calibers that will remain nameless.
 
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