The FBI protocols do specify maxima.
Civilian Concealed Carry, Barrier Penetrating Ammo, Or Not? Sabers vs Dots
- Thread starter Hartkopf
- Start date
- Status
Deus Machina
Member
Well, I can see shooting a target through plywood or something at the range to be fun maybe once or twice, and any shooting at a living target should be while hunting (and thus needing a clear POI) or by definition be defensive.
So I'm going to go with rare, in general.
Of course that's not counting military purposes, but they use bullets designed to penetrate when they need it and not ones to expand overall.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Heh! I think we can agree here!
In must confess to having completely missed this. Probably a fault with my internal filters where I glazed over this, not thinking to pay attention to that kind of information. Do you have a link I can peruse?
I should have worded my original question in much simpler terms to avoid confusion and conclusions. Here is a response to a similar question from another forum. This response, I feel, gives validity to my original question. LEOs have different “patterns of engagement” than typical armed citizens, at least in this guy’s opinion, and I totally agree.
Do not interpret the words "the bonded projectile's primary advantage seems to be in barrier penetration" to mean that bonded projectiles are more likely to penetrate barriers.
Last edited:
Ok. From what I’ve gathered (some just recently) there almost seems to be no difference between the two (bonded/unbounded) penetrating barriers. In plywood, almost everything clogs, becomes a ball round, and whistles right through a gel block. Through sheet metal, both Gold Dots and Golden Sabers fold in and then do not expand in gel, and pass through 16” easily. I have not tested or seen results through glass yet.
Through thicker steel, .075 mild steel, 124gr HSTs and 124gr Gold Dots penetrated VERY similarly. Basically no difference between bonded and unbonded in this test. Penetration was dependent on bullet diameter and speed as larger slower bullets just dented the steel.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,125
Currently I carry 124gr +p (non bonded) Golden Sabers in my large 9mm handguns. I am perfectly fine not carrying barrier blind ammo at the moment. And because I got a good deal on half a case of ammo, so I might as well use it. Knowing the limits of the ammo is just as important to ammo selection as knowing its strengths.
As a civilian I don't put a lot of thought on barrier performance one way or another. I would say it would be more important to get a carry round you can afford to shoot regularly so you are very familiar with it's behavior in your carry gun. Gold Dots make a good option because seconds are regularly available for $0.20 a round or less for practice.
bullseye308
Member
In my personal opinion what really matters is picking a quality round that you can stock up on, your gun shoots accurately, and has a good street record. Pretty much any of the big names make good ammo that will do this. Worrying about that extra .15” is not as important as most think it is when the lead is flying. Your stress level that most don’t practice under will keep you from making precise hits in targets anyway. 9, 40, or 45 are close enough to equal these days, figure out what you shoot best, carry a load you can afford to stock up on, and get some practice that includes stress and adrenaline and see how you do compared to regular range practice.
As far as barrier penetration, I just carry extra ammo. Not a time to be stingy with ammo, it may take a few rounds to get through or convince the target to present a better target. I carry a Glock 17 with 2 spare mags loaded with my gold dot loads that it shoots very well loaded just a bit lighter than factory. Am I worried? No. I can get good hits and have enough to get through anything I can imaging I could get involved in and enough ammo to stay in the fight.
All that said, I hope and pray I’ll never have to use it and find out but if I am put in that situation, I’ll be confident in what I have with me. Barrier penetration just doesn’t really figure in much as most any rounds will penetrate most things to a degree. Again just my opinion, feel free to disagree or have your own. We could both be right.
As far as barrier penetration, I just carry extra ammo. Not a time to be stingy with ammo, it may take a few rounds to get through or convince the target to present a better target. I carry a Glock 17 with 2 spare mags loaded with my gold dot loads that it shoots very well loaded just a bit lighter than factory. Am I worried? No. I can get good hits and have enough to get through anything I can imaging I could get involved in and enough ammo to stay in the fight.
All that said, I hope and pray I’ll never have to use it and find out but if I am put in that situation, I’ll be confident in what I have with me. Barrier penetration just doesn’t really figure in much as most any rounds will penetrate most things to a degree. Again just my opinion, feel free to disagree or have your own. We could both be right.
C-grunt
Member
Not thinking about barrier penetration is fine and dandy until you're leaving the mall/Walmart/Target with your family and Johnny Jihadist starts running over people in the parking lot with his rental van. At that moment how a bullet behaves after penetrating a windshield, door, or window could be a very big factor.
My department issues HST for 40 and 45 and Gold Dots for 9mm. All will kill you after penetrating a barrier. I have not seen the 40 and 45 fail to work after penetrating auto glass and sheet metal. Would a bonded bullet have worked better? Maybe... But shot location after the barrier was always the deciding factor between an incapacitating shot or not.
About 8-10 years ago I responded to a shoot out in a parking lot from a drug deal gone wrong. Shootout started between the two guys who were both sitting in the front seats of the same car. During that gunfight the loser took a 45 Golden Saber (I dont know what weight) to the forehead just above the right eye. bullet deflected downward, exited his right cheek, re-entered his right chest just behind the collar bone, went through the right lung, delfected off a rib then traversed across his lower chest/upper abdomen hitting basically everything in between. The expanded bullet ended up near his left hip. That bullet expanded (not the fully opened flower look) and penetrated probably 30 inches or more.
What Im trying to get at with those stories is that a non bonded bullet isnt necessarily going to be less effective after penetrating barriers and isnt necessarily going to penetrate less in a bad guy.
For me, Ill carry a good bonded round if able. Ive seen enough guys take 5.56 and 308 rounds to he chest and still be up and about for a bit. If Im using a popgun Ill use every advantage possible.
My department issues HST for 40 and 45 and Gold Dots for 9mm. All will kill you after penetrating a barrier. I have not seen the 40 and 45 fail to work after penetrating auto glass and sheet metal. Would a bonded bullet have worked better? Maybe... But shot location after the barrier was always the deciding factor between an incapacitating shot or not.
About 8-10 years ago I responded to a shoot out in a parking lot from a drug deal gone wrong. Shootout started between the two guys who were both sitting in the front seats of the same car. During that gunfight the loser took a 45 Golden Saber (I dont know what weight) to the forehead just above the right eye. bullet deflected downward, exited his right cheek, re-entered his right chest just behind the collar bone, went through the right lung, delfected off a rib then traversed across his lower chest/upper abdomen hitting basically everything in between. The expanded bullet ended up near his left hip. That bullet expanded (not the fully opened flower look) and penetrated probably 30 inches or more.
What Im trying to get at with those stories is that a non bonded bullet isnt necessarily going to be less effective after penetrating barriers and isnt necessarily going to penetrate less in a bad guy.
For me, Ill carry a good bonded round if able. Ive seen enough guys take 5.56 and 308 rounds to he chest and still be up and about for a bit. If Im using a popgun Ill use every advantage possible.
Carjacking.
About 38,000 a year in the U.S. At one point Chicagoland was averaging 2.6 carjackings a day, I'm not sure what the rate is now, but its still relatively high due to Cook County's lenient laws on juvenile carjacking.
I want a bullet that will penetrate car glass, a car door (or both), heavy clothing, and still penetrate to around 14"
About 38,000 a year in the U.S. At one point Chicagoland was averaging 2.6 carjackings a day, I'm not sure what the rate is now, but its still relatively high due to Cook County's lenient laws on juvenile carjacking.
I want a bullet that will penetrate car glass, a car door (or both), heavy clothing, and still penetrate to around 14"
You do have a point.
C-grunt
Member
Well that depends on your definition of significant. A bonded bullet is more likely to keep it's jacket, more likely to expand well, and more likely to give adequate penetration. Notice I said more likely because it's not a given. Windshields are very hard barriers to penetrate and still get proper performance after.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Meh.
Handguns are inherently limited in power by their nature. If anybody is seriously considering the need to reliably penetrate "windshield, door, or window" with any kind of effective terminal ballistics afterwards for the intended target, they're going to either have to carry a handgun a lot less concealable/comfortable, or carry a rifle.
When you start mixing terminal ballistic criteria up, what you end up with is a bullet that might do more, but it does it less effectively.
For example, if you want a handgun bullet which causes maximum tissue damage, then you'll be hard pressed to top a quality jacketed hollowpoint. If you want a bullet which penetrates hard barriers (windshield, door, or window), then you'd be hard pressed to beat a jacketed round nose bullet.
Shooting hollowpoints through barriers causes radical bullet deformation, drop in velocity, and instability, which means you will likely lose all, or most, of the expansion characteristics you would like when it encounters soft tissue.
I'm personally not after a magic armor piercing, heat seeking, incendiary, explody bullet that does all things under all circumstances. I want a reliable self-defense round with a proven track record that I can depend upon to inflict enough damage to an assailant to stop him. That I have to be able to hit him to do this is a given...but I cannot predict, and prepare for, all possibilities which may be encountered with respect to the cover an assailant may utilize.
C-grunt
Member
Ive personally seen Gold Dots and HST give good penetration and expansion after being shot through windshields and auto bodies.
Going through car glass is iffy at best, but bullets that lose their jackets have a high likelihood of merely becoming a tumbling lead projectile. Is a single projectile of (roughly) #000 Buck moving at 900 to 1100 fps capable of stopping an attacker? Yes.
But if I had a choice of firing a 147gr, .355" slug of lead from a smoothbore at an assailant versus firing a 147gr .355" jacketed hollow point from a rifled barrel at an assailant, I would choose the later.
To me, choosing bullets that have higher probabilities of making it through car glass represent the same choice of hollow point versus slug.
When I think about just using FMJ, I just have too many second thoughts. "What if I'm not shooting through car door and car glass? And even if I had to take a shot through the driver's side window into a carjacker, do I really want that bullet zipping out the back of the carjacker going God knows where?
I'd rather hit a carjacker with a deformed JHP or worse case scenario - a tumbling de-jacketed lead bullet than a FMJ.
But if I had a choice of firing a 147gr, .355" slug of lead from a smoothbore at an assailant versus firing a 147gr .355" jacketed hollow point from a rifled barrel at an assailant, I would choose the later.
To me, choosing bullets that have higher probabilities of making it through car glass represent the same choice of hollow point versus slug.
When I think about just using FMJ, I just have too many second thoughts. "What if I'm not shooting through car door and car glass? And even if I had to take a shot through the driver's side window into a carjacker, do I really want that bullet zipping out the back of the carjacker going God knows where?
I'd rather hit a carjacker with a deformed JHP or worse case scenario - a tumbling de-jacketed lead bullet than a FMJ.
Last edited:
FL-NC
Member
I think subjects like this are way over-thought. I say get some HP ammo from a reputable company that functions reliably in your handgun, and then concentrate on getting as proficient as possible firing whatever cheap practice ammo functions in that handgun.
JTQ
Member
Greg Ellifritz "Stop Worrying About Overpenetration"
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/stop-worrying-about-overpenetration
As mentioned by a few posters above, Ellifritz comments ...
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/stop-worrying-about-overpenetration
As mentioned by a few posters above, Ellifritz comments ...
C-grunt
Member
Came across this video yesterday. I know the "meat target" isn't scientific but it shows that even cheap 38 hollow points from a snubby are effective through a windshield. At that point I'd rather get a bullet that performs better through a windshield incase I need to stop a threat.
I will point out the Win USA40JHP of Walmart fame did pass the FBI test in 4" Guns. If you need a cheaper JHP you could do a lot worse in a .40.
Agreed that it’s not scientific but the 9mm Remington 115gr cheapest of the cheap hollow points were deadly to the meat target after passing through a windshield. Not much reason to carry such a cheap load but it is good to know what it could possibly do through glass.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
