how your physical condition affects the legality of using deadly force to defend yourself

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I am sufficiently "disabled" to qualify for a handicapped license plate. When it comes to the use of a gun in self-defense, I consider whether circumstances require that I MUST immediately employ the gun to defend my life or that of others. I don't expect my disability to factor into whether that decision was reasonable, but to the extent it was, I will rely on my defense counsel to raise it at the appropriate point in the trial.
 
Broke my back in a horse riding accident so 40 years ago and was paralyzed from waist down for several months.Was told In would never walk again but after 2 years of body cast and many operations managed to get by with lose of feeling in right leg from knee down and sole of left foot . Couldnt stand up in the dark or with eyes closed ,had to have a point of reference .Lost my pilots license but kept riding horses and motorcycles and hiking living a pretty normal life.Fast forward to now torn up left knee overcompensating for right leg and no cartilidge in right ankle that cant be replaced or fused because of dead nerves .Doc said I would just bust it and lose foot.So here comes Forest Gump brace and wheel chair in a few years Cant run and cant fight so distance is my friend ,that means pepper gel spray and my handgun .So far only had to use spray and hope stays that way.
 
Mr. Jackson, good for you!
I have some slight understanding of what you have been through. In my late teens, I had to have surgery on my lower spine for a pair of herniated discs. For the next year, I had to be quite careful in what and how I moved. For over 20 years, I have been able to live and work at near normal levels but weight and arthritis have now taken their toll. I keep various handguns hidden close by around the house and have a shotgun and AK on a rack in the bedroom. "JIC". :D
 
Fused spine, total knee replacement, advanced osteoarthritis in hands and other knee. Yeah, I go armed and you can bet that if, God forbid, I have to use my gun I'll play the age, disability and victim cards. I practice awareness, avoidance and try to be pleasant and accommodating. I find that since beginning the cc process my driving habits and consideration have improved immensely. "An armed society is a polite society".
Stan
 
I practice awareness, avoidance and try to be pleasant and accommodating. I find that since beginning the cc process my driving habits and consideration have improved immensely. "An armed society is a polite society".

Funny how that works huh? I would wager that my odds of having to deploy my CCW dropped immensely once I actually started doing so, solely by virtue of heightened awareness, forethought and avoidance. I damn sure don't want to go through the hassle of having to defend armed action unless there was no other option.
 
Have never been a fighter.
Try to avoid any hassle.
But injuries and arthritis have me unable to leave situations in speedy fashion LOL
With influx of criminals to my area........its not very comforting.

Always been risk.
Its just way higher now.

Local law enforcement says to always be armed.
Burg could go all Ferguson any time.
 
Disability isn't a blank check to do whatever it takes to defend yourself. Recently, an elderly man was beaten on Chicago public transportation first by a pickpocket he caught in the act and then by a mob. Andrew Branca discusses the incident in detail on his website (www.lawofselfdefense.com). You must be a member to get access but the bronze level is free. Although the pickpocket is bigger than the old man, several decades younger, and has him down on the floor in a position of complete disadvantage, Branca maintains that the old man still wasn't permitted to respond with deadly force. He has stated on many occasions that you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack. The implication is that, if you can't save yourself without resorting to deadly force, you are obligated to take the beating. Therefore, it's important to have a less than deadly alternative such as martial arts or pepper spray.
 
Yeah. Considering the number one murder weapon in the world is bare fists.

Do you have data on this? I don't doubt it, it would be nice to have some hard data.

Here are the FBI homicide statistics for the US from 2014-2018.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

These statistics are widely referenced to make the argument that all longs guns are pretty insignificant, in terms of homicide. The statistics do not show that fists and feet are a primary weapon. Handguns are by far out in front, followed pretty distantly by edged weapons.

Regarding the the subject of this thread. Anyone who is trying to "ground and pound" you is absolutely a potentially lethal and immediate threat. And if the person is much more physically capable than you are, then the threat is further amplified. I can believe that the law in many jurisdictions would reject the claim of "lethal threat" if the attacker was unarmed. But the legal truth can be different from the actual truth in many ways. This is one of many reasons why it is important to be well familiar with the laws in your area.
 
Surprising as it may be to some, the US is only a small part of "the world" and a rather unique one in many respects.

I thought of this point as I was linking to the US statistics. I would be very interested to know the stats on a wider or worldwide basis.

My guess is that in a wider survey, blunt and edged weapons would have a much higher representation. However, since what differentiates humans from animals is that we are very poorly armed when naked, but are fundamentally tool using creatures, I would guess that fists are not all that high on the list of lethal weapons. Fists and feet certainly can be deadly, but rocks and sticks are more so. And with a little time to shape and sharpen them, rocks and sticks improve drastically. Nonetheless, if anyone has wider data on armed vs unarmed lethality, I would be very interested.
 
He has stated on many occasions that you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack.
.Note exactly. It's against what a reasonable person, knowing what the defender knew at the time, would believe to constitute less than deadly force .

That's been the law for centuries--probably dating back to the time of Blackstone.

The implication is that, if you can't save yourself without resorting to deadly force, you are obligated to take the beating.
Save yourself from what?

Therefore, it's important to have a less than deadly alternative such as martial arts or pepper spray.
Yes, it's a very good idea. According to FBI stats, for out of five altercations fall short of the threshold for justifying deadly force. I carry one. So does Branca.

And I would like to ask Branca at what point a beating becomes deadly for any given individual...
It's covered in the LoSD Level 1 course, and in many of the LoSD Blog Posts.

pretty sad.
??
 
Yep, sometimes I put my foot in my mouth. My apologies. Sometimes I'll open a thread and scroll quickly to see if I can get a snapshot of what's going on, I missed badly, looks like some really good information, really good. I'm investigating further.
 
Disability isn't a blank check to do whatever it takes to defend yourself. Recently, an elderly man was beaten on Chicago public transportation first by a pickpocket he caught in the act and then by a mob. Andrew Branca discusses the incident in detail on his website (www.lawofselfdefense.com). You must be a member to get access but the bronze level is free. Although the pickpocket is bigger than the old man, several decades younger, and has him down on the floor in a position of complete disadvantage, Branca maintains that the old man still wasn't permitted to respond with deadly force. He has stated on many occasions that you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack. The implication is that, if you can't save yourself without resorting to deadly force, you are obligated to take the beating. Therefore, it's important to have a less than deadly alternative such as martial arts or pepper spray.
I have a bronze level subscription but it's not letting me see that article.

However, the report at Fox News says
The Chicago Police Department told Fox News the beating is under investigation, but no one is in custody because the victim “was unable to identify his attacker(s) due to his injuries.” A police source told Fox that the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office “wouldn’t touch” the case if the victim can’t identify those accused or is unable to cooperate.

(link: https://www.foxnews.com/us/exclusive-chicago-subway-video-man-attacked-11-teens)

The incident was captured on video, which you can also see at the Fox link. It's hard to believe the victim would not have been allowed to claim self-defense.

OTOH, from a practical standpoint, suppose the victim had a gun and shot one of the attackers, the others would have probably swarmed him, taken the gun, and shot him.

Public transportation in many places is become a "stupid place" to go.
 
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"Recently, an elderly man was beaten on Chicago public transportation first by a pickpocket he caught in the act and then by a mob ... you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack."

And that's Chicago.

In Tennessee carry permit class based on actual court rulings and opinion of the state AG, "less than deadly attack" meant something like a bloody nose, black eye, boot bruised butt from which you could expect to walk away maybe with bruised body or ego but with no imminent threat of death or permanent disability. Disparity of strength or size (an Arnold Schwartzeneger beating a Wally Cox) or disparity of numbers (a gang jumping a lone person) would constitute a deadly attack justifying threat or use of lethal force in self-defense.

FBI: UCR 2018 Crime in the United States
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 Murder Victims by Weapon used
672 Personal Weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)
297 Rifles
235 Shotguns
So the 672 murder victims killed in 2018 by unarmed assailants using personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc) should have been felonized if they had defended themselves with a deadly weapon and survived? (And if assault weapons, a subset of rifles and shotguns, are to be banned, what about those more often lethally used personal weapons?)

There are nuances in law and precedence in Tennessee: the initial attacker has the duty to retreat; if the attacker decides to leave, the victim no longer faces imminent death or greivous bodily harm and has successfully defended themself within the law. If the initial victim continues to use lethal force in retribution or pursues the attacker for revenge, the legal roles are reversed and the retreating attacker has the right to use lethal force in self-defense if they fear for life or limb.
 
"Recently, an elderly man was beaten on Chicago public transportation first by a pickpocket he caught in the act and then by a mob ... you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack."

And that's Chicago.

In Tennessee carry permit class based on actual court rulings and opinion of the state AG, "less than deadly attack" meant something like a bloody nose, black eye, boot bruised butt from which you could expect to walk away maybe with bruised body or ego but with no imminent threat of death or permanent disability. Disparity of strength or size (an Arnold Schwartzeneger beating a Wally Cox) or disparity of numbers (a gang jumping a lone person) would constitute a deadly attack justifying threat or use of lethal force in self-defense.

FBI: UCR 2018 Crime in the United States
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 Murder Victims by Weapon used
672 Personal Weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)
297 Rifles
235 Shotguns
So the 672 murder victims killed in 2018 by unarmed assailants using personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc) should have been felonized if they had defended themselves with a deadly weapon and survived? (And if assault weapons, a subset of rifles and shotguns, are to be banned, what about those more often lethally used personal weapons?)

There are nuances in law and precedence in Tennessee: the initial attacker has the duty to retreat; if the attacker decides to leave, the victim no longer faces imminent death or greivous bodily harm and has successfully defended themself within the law. If the initial victim continues to use lethal force in retribution or pursues the attacker for revenge, the legal roles are reversed and the retreating attacker has the right to use lethal force in self-defense if they fear for life or limb.
At my CCW class I was by far the smallest and oldest participant. The instructor, a retired cop over 6' and burly, kept using me for his examples of disparity of strength and size. And so far gender still counts.
 
I think that you are talking disparity of force here. Using a greater level of force is going to have to be justified at some point, as will identifying victim versus aggressor. Physically disabled or not.
 
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