Winchester Prewar Model 70 - safety issue

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I have a 1941 Winchester Prewar Model 70 chambered in .30-06. I would have sworn I tried the safety before I got it, but when I got it home, the safety is stuck in the fire position. I disassembled the bolt and cleaned and oiled it. I tested the safety and it moved freely to all 3 positions. I reassembled the bolt and manually pulled back the firing pin, while doing so I was able to set the safety in the middle position. I put the bolt back in the rifle and when I removed the safety to fire, I could see the firing pin move forward a bit. Pulled the trigger and cycled the bolt. The safety will not engage. I suspect the firing pin is not moving back far enough for the safety to engage.

I suspect this could be many things, but can a poorly adjust trigger affect how far the firing pin moves back? I know this could be worn sear, but I am worried about the potential of a botched trigger pull adjustment.

Can just adjusting the spring and trigger adjustment affect the safety? If not, I suspect I will need to look at replacing parts, (firing pin and or sear/trigger??). Any tips on things to try first?

I have a Marlin Model 60 with a local gunsmith who has been sick in the hospital and not getting anywhere with that project. I called around to some other smiths, but none work on "antique" guns. Hoping to gain a bit of knowledge here and maybe a trigger adjustment will help? Otherwise, I will have to find a smith that can trouble shoot and either grind the firing pin back enough so the safety can engage. Or new parts, etc. Obviously those would be for the smith to help with, I am just hopeful that maybe trigger adjustment might help.
 
The trigger adjustment isn't the cause nor the fix. Without seeing it, I'd have to assume that the safety or striker is worn to failure. I'd try replacing the safety first. gunpartscorp.com
 
There are really three parts involved, the striker, safety and bolt -- specifically the camming surface. It may be the striker isn't being cammed back far enough for the safety to engage. That's the first thing I'd check.
 
Take yours to a gunsmith. I have one just like yours in the 40xxx serial number range. Mine works fine. Sounds like yours is an easy fix.
 
When I had it apart, I checked and cleaned the little grove where the safety goes in. I didn't realize that it needed to cam and press the spring back. I had a heck of a time pulling back the pin with the bolt out of the rifle, so maybe I am not twisting the safety hard enough. I think it deserves another look to check the cam surface and clean and polish and lube, (grease? - what type). I'll check into a tool to measure trigger pull.

I finally got a hold of the gunsmith that has my Marlin Model 60. Still has some health issues, so I don't want to give him another rifle, but I am hopeful he can take a look at it next week.

Mike
 
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Which safety do you have, the "doll's head" or the more modern, low-swing version? If you have the low-swing version, it's an after-market addition. This was often done by simply switching out the whole bolt, but if the safety was only modified, that can cause trouble.
 
when the trigger pull gets down to around two pounds, the safety mechanism can stop working. your gunsmith should be able to fix the problem.

luck,

murf
 
I found a really good smith that comes highly recommended and used to be in my hometown. Moved East a few hours away but got him on the phone and he is very familiar with old Winchester’s and will be taking care of my issue. He thinks he can solve with the existing parts. I think this will be solved shortly.

Now if I can just get my Marlin 60 back from the other guy.......

Mike
 
The easiest place to get pre 64 Model 70 safety parts is on eBay. If it was my rifle and I used it for hunting I would replace the safety lever and pin with the late version. Just for information there are three versions which include the pre war version, the transition version and the late version that appeared about 1950. The late version of the safety is easier to use because the lever turns down by the side of the bolt shroud. A replacement firing pin can also be purchased on eBay.
 
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Mine has a serial in the 35K range. It ends up being from 1941 so it is a pre64 and I think is classified as a prewar model Type 1-4 from what I have found on the net. The gunsmith is very familiar with these early Winchester’s and said it was likely from someone messing with the trigger. He said he has parts from that era if needed.
 
I think the fix will be for your gunsmith to take a small single cut file and take a couple of strokes on the back side of the notch where the safety goes through the firing pin. If the firing pin has moved forward as indicated by Slamfire that should solve the problem. I have built a complete pre 64 Model 70 out of parts and I had to do that on the one I assembled. Later I installed a Timney trigger which probably would have solved the original problem. The Timney No. 401 will fit your rifle. A replacement firing pin would cost about $70 where as the Timney will cost about $120. Good luck with the fix.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I do not like enclosed triggers -- I've had one freeze up in harsh conditions. The original Model 70 trigger is the best for hunting in bad weather.


I agree, of the single stage over ride triggers, it was the best I have encountered.

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The most reliable and hardest triggers to get out of order are the military two stage triggers, typified by this trigger

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It is unusal for Mark 1 rifles to retain both the Pedersen cutoff and the Pedersen trigger, but mine has.

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With a military trigger you could butt stock and bayonet someone and the trigger would not jar off. I don't trust the jar off of over ride triggers because they are so mechanically delicate.

There is very little metal to metal contact on the sears of an override trigger. These things are basically trap doors, knock the prop out of the way and the firing pin goes forward.

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Of the type, the old M70 triggers have proven to be extremely reliable as long as surfaces are not honed and the springs are not weakened.
 
With a military trigger you could butt stock and bayonet someone and the trigger would not jar off. I don't trust the jar off of over ride triggers because they are so mechanically delicate.

There is very little metal to metal contact on the sears of an override trigger. These things are basically trap doors, knock the prop out of the way and the firing pin goes forward.

Of the type, the old M70 triggers have proven to be extremely reliable as long as surfaces are not honed and the springs are not weakened.

Amen -- and that's why I love them.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I do not like enclosed triggers -- I've had one freeze up in harsh conditions. The original Model 70 trigger is the best for hunting in bad weather.

I agree with this statement but it needs to be qualified. Much of today's hunting is done under conditions where target accuracy is expected when shots are made at 250 yards and beyond. I can shoot minute of angle groups at 200 meters using only a single shooting stick with a Model 70 equipped with a Timney trigger and I could never get that kind of groups with the original trigger. I hunted with my Model 70's for years with the trigger tension backed off or the springs cut shorter to lessen the trigger pull. Most of my favorite Model 70's now have Timney triggers because I won't accept anything less. Better scopes, better bullets and better powders require a MOA trigger.
 
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Attached is a pair of pre 64 270 Winchester standard grade rifles with Timney triggers. Included are targets for each of the rifles at 200 meters (218 yards) fired sitting on the ground using only a shooting stick. I practice like I hunt and the temperature when the first target was used was 22 degrees F. The group on the second target is one click to the left because the rifle was originally sighted in with Berger classic hunter bullets and this group was fired with Speer boattails. IMG_4226.JPG IMG_4227.JPG IMG_4229.JPG
 
MFDC4744.JPG For anyone who hasn't practiced with a shooting stick I can sit down, position my hand on the stick at the proper height, lay the rifle over my wrist and fire an aimed shot in about 10 seconds. Since the firing position lacks firmness the completion of the trigger pull happens when the reticle is in the center of the target. I put pressure on the trigger and complete the squeeze when the sight picture is correct. I usually fire 5 shot groups and it is common to have one shot out of five an inch or so away from the main group because it is very hard to keep all 5 together but I call every shot so I will know what to expect when I walk up to the target. Regardless, all shots are game getters at 250 yards or less. Deer season is over for this year but pictures like this keep me enthused for the 2020 rifle season.
 
I used marbles in a small bag until I got the trigger to fire. It came in just above 4lbs. I took a pic of the sear where it engages the firing pin and it has a big groove worn in it. I don't know what a new sear looks like, but for items that should have tight tolerances it looks worn/or badly filed. That would probably explain why the safety can't engage and the pin is too far forward. Boxing up the rifle to send to the gunsmith.

Mike
 
I used marbles in a small bag until I got the trigger to fire. It came in just above 4lbs. I took a pic of the sear where it engages the firing pin and it has a big groove worn in it. I don't know what a new sear looks like, but for items that should have tight tolerances it looks worn/or badly filed. That would probably explain why the safety can't engage and the pin is too far forward. Boxing up the rifle to send to the gunsmith.

Mike
I think you've nailed it. The only thing that would allow the firing pin to move forward would be to move the engagement surfaces forward -- and filing the sear would do that.
 
Well, a lot has happened since this post. I found a reputable gunsmith that used to be in my area. I had to send the rifle to him, not too far, but too far to drive easily. He gave it the once over and noted there was a barrel change, (Douglas Sporter). Stated it closed on a Field Gauge so he recommended trying to get my money back. I wasn't sure how that would work out, so I asked what it would take to be made right. He needed to take a cast to be sure it was .30-06, (and not some wildcat or some other issue). He did so, and turned the barrel and fixed the headspace. Fixed up the safety so it engaged properly. After a lot of time and money, it is ready to go. Cost me more than I wanted, and in hindsight, should have passed on the original purchase. But glad to have a prewar Model 70 back in service. Now, if the ranges would open in my area, I could actually shoot the effen thing. LOL...
 
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