Age of powder based on container & suitability for further use

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orpington

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20200219_190725.jpg I hijacked someone else's thread and, expectedly I suppose, I did not receive the answers I desired.

The attached photograph is of two each of 2400 and Bullseye powder I own. How old based on the canisters? I suspected late 70's or early 80's, but someone else thought maybe as early as the 1960's.

I was informed stocking up on powder makes economic sense as it lasts a lifetime, but some threads suggest not.

Organoleptically, this powder looks and smells correct. I would not be able to tell it from like powder manufactured today.

How do I store these as the rare event of spontaneous combustion has been suggested? Containers feel to be room temperature.

Pressure spikes have been suggested with old powder. Should I just discard? I would much rather fertilize the lawn and now more than damage a firearm. Having said that, I stick to the low end of ranges in the Lyman Reloading Handbook.

While I am at it, I have metal canisters of IMR 4227 and 3031. Taller and wider, not that deep, maybe 2". They were common, but from when? No photographs of these at this time.

I will say I have loaded rounds from the IMR canisters as well as Unique from a similar cuboid canister with no problems and no evidence of increased pressures.
 
I was informed ... powder ... lasts a lifetime, but some threads suggest not.
It potentially could, depending on how it was stored but consider what Hodgdon has to say about powder deterioration as soon as powder is poured in to the retail containers - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

"The following information is provided as an introduction on the stability, storage, and safe handling of modern smokeless propellant.

Smokeless Propellant

The main ingredient of smokeless propellant, comprising from about 55% to 90% of the composition, is nitrocellulose. The process of creating nitrocellulose leaves remnant acid in the material. This acid immediately starts decomposing the finished product. Left alone the decomposition will reach the stage where the propellant becomes unstable and self-ignites. This process resulted in massive explosions at U.S. Government arsenals after World War I.

To increase the life of the smokeless propellant, a stabilizing chemical is used. This “stabilizer” reacts with the acid to slow down the decomposition process. However, as the stabilizer reacts with the acid it is consumed. After the stabilizer is totally consumed, the propellant is no longer protected from the internal acid.

The entire stabilizer / decomposition process is a time and temperature function – the higher the temperature, the shorter the safe life of the powder. Even moderate temperature, over extended time, leads to propellant decomposition. As a rule of thumb, any temperature over that which is comfortable to a person is accelerating the decomposition of smokeless propellants.

Under proper storage, modern smokeless powder can last for decades. However, this does not mean the reloader can ignore how the powder is stored, particularly if in an uncontrolled environment such as a garage or storage building."
 
My powder is stored in a cool dry basement. Given some if this powder may be older than I, prior storage is unknown but seems to have been comparable due to no evidence of decomposition.
 
Your Bullseye and 2400 are most likely from the 60’s.
I think DuPont started using the slim metal cans around 1970.
Your can of IMR-4350 has 1500 written on the can. If that’s the price ($15.00) that would be in line with prices around the mid 80’s.
 
60's. I have some of those cans too. Sealed and opened. I plan to shoot it all up. I also have cardboard cans of H4895 from when Bruce was repackaging it from rail cars. I plan to shoot it up too.
 
As I recall, the can of IMR-4227 that Dad bought when we first hopped on the Reloading Train in 1968 looked just like the can in the image below:

index.php
 
Okay, so as long as organoleptically sound, which everything I own is, you foresee NO problems with storage (e.g., spontaneous combustion) or excessive pressures? I intend to load this and fire as soon as possible but it still could take several years.

The $15 on the DuPont container was the cost to me as bought sealed and unopened a few years ago.
 
you foresee NO problems with storage (e.g., spontaneous combustion) or excessive pressures? I

No one can predict that.

There are ways to check powder for evidence of deterioration, but that is not an absolute answer... the burden of that responsibility is on you. I've dumped powder that was mine from purchase just because I didn't like how it looked or smelled. I don't bemoan $20 of powder vs a quality firearm... or my face or hand.

As far as pressure, using that powder in a standard load workup (that is, a published starting load, moving forward...) excessive pressure would make itself known if you know what to look for. As far as powder storage, I don't know if I've ever seen smokeless powder suffer from spontaneous combustion... it usually requires an outside influence.
 
Okay very good. Working up loads, I start at the low end as published in the Hornady Reloading Manual and look for excessive pressure. This has yet to be evident with any of my loads as I stick to the lower end of the ranges as published.
 
I have written extensively on gunpowder lifetime, and 'insensitive munitions". I have posted lots of information and I always get denial. Humans believe they are going to live forever, therefore they toss out any information that they, and their gunpowder, will turn to dust. The logic is irrefutable: "I am going to live forever and therefore, so will my ammunition".

Do not reuse old containers with any evidence of corrosion inside. Rust is ionic and the interaction of ionic molecules break down gunpowder. Incidentally, water is bad. Humidity in the air, breaks down gunpowder because the big end of the water molecule has a charge. Water is polar-covalent, which is an unusual property. Keep your cans sealed, but periodically sniff the stuff.

When powder gets to this level, dump it:

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Powder this deteriorated will burn the house down. No joke.

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Powder goes bad all the time, and it does not have to be that old. Irrationality does not have to be consistent, so deniers accept that these powders have gone bad, but to them, that does not change their opinion that gunpowder is immortal.

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Unstable means, the gunpowder will auto combust and burn your house down, with you in it!

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Military organizations use $250,000 machines to determine the percentage of stabilizer left in gunpowder. Once the stabilizer is less than 20% of original content, the powder is scrapped. They get rid of it before it auto combusts and causes an ammunition depot to explode. That is first world countries. There is an ammunition depot a month blowing some where in the world, in second and third world countries. But, shooters ignore this because it conflicts with their opinion that ammunition is like a fine wine, that it gets better with age. Armies also run fume tests where gunpowder is put into a test tube, at 165 F, and if it fumes red within 30 days, they toss everything loaded with that lot of gunpowder.

This is from a 1967 or 68 symposium. Important thing to understand, they are scrapping "immortal" WW2 ammunition. Now how can ammunition be immortal if they are scrapping the stuff 25 years later?

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Unstable means, the gunpowder will auto combust and burn your house down, with you in it!

I wasn't aware gunpowder could 'auto combust,' it was my understanding it needed something even as simple as a static charge to set it off. Interesting...
 
"organoleptically". I love that word, will make a point of using it.
As for your original question, I can't speak for the age of your containers, but it should be safe to use in mild loads slated to be used in a short time period. This last part is important, gunpowder can continue to degrade in loaded ammunition.

I think the best overall answer for keeping powder is no more than a 10 years supply on hand, accounting for rotating your stock. We all like to shoot, so this should not be a problem. If it's getting close to it's 10 year birthday, shoot it up and load more.
 
I wasn't aware gunpowder could 'auto combust,' it was my understanding it needed something even as simple as a static charge to set it off. Interesting...

Smokeless powders came out in the 1880's and very soon the powers that be found out that nitrocellulose propellants would auto combust. That was over 140 years ago, and the shooting community has 140 years of ignoring this problem and 140 years of education to become current. How do you point out a danger to someone who does not want to hear it?

A number of times I have mentioned the term, Agnotology, which is the study of culturally induced ignorance. Industry has no reason to educate the shooting society about the dangers of old, deteriorated gunpowder. And then, the shooting society does not want to hear about it, as it conflicts with their bias that they and their gunpowder are immortal. From industries viewpoint, this is a win-win. If the shooting society knew that everything about old gunpowder is bad, then the shooting community might want things like "best buy" dates on ammunition and powder containers. And if the best buy date was five years ago, who would pay full price?. In all respects, an ill informed society making irrational choices is just wonderful to sellers. So what you read, what you consume, is all geared on educating you on what to buy, and nothing about what not to buy.

And it works!

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Anyway, searches will find the information:


Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1


Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges

page 13-1

WARNING

Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (auto ignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may auto ignite, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.

Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes.


Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer

Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage

C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assessment on the installation must be reported in writing…

One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.

D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.


Propellant Management Guide


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/prop_guide.pdf

DEFINITION:STABILIZERS


Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant to prevent auto ignition during the propellant's expected useful life....


EXPLANATION:As nitrate ester-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic, i.e. the reaction produces heat. The exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become saturated they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. At this point self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.


Everything about old gunpowder is bad, there is nothing good about old gunpowder. It will blow up your gun, it will, in bulk, auto combust. The amount of bulk is a minor article of contention in the Insensitive Munitions community. Some hold to a 4 inch rule, that is shells less than four inches in diameter won't auto combust due to the thermal conductivity of the shell. The mass of the metal is proposed to keep powder temperatures down due to thermal heat conduction. The Insensitive Munitions expert I met, claimed this was bunk and he had investigated enough explosive incidents to reach that conclusion. There may be something to it, when I was indoctrinated by industry dis information on this topic, I pulled a number of bullets from 1898 manufactured Krag ammunition and examined the powder. One, the powder was beautiful, it had tiny points of ruby light. I examined the powder with a magnifying glass and saw tiny ruby granules that looked like charcoal briquets in flame. I remember seeing what had to be the waving of flames, just exactly as burning coals give off. I had no idea what I was looking at. And I remember thinking what I was seeing was inexplicable, as I knew gunpowder was immortal. That is what I learned in the popular press. I wish I had taken a picture, because I have never seen this again, and don't blame anyone for calling me a liar. I don't understand why the propellant did not go "poof" in front of my face.

I gave most of those cartridges away but I kept a couple, but none of them showed that level of deterioration. All of them had red gunpowder, I used to post the picture to show that the gunpowder was deteriorated, but deniers claimed original 1898 gunpowder was red, when new, and I don't have any color pictures from 1898 to prove otherwise. So I stopped posting the picture. Nothing you can show will ever convince a denier. They will come up with some very imaginative false explanations.

But, to get back on topic, maybe gunpowder will not auto combust in small arms cases, it sure as hell will in one pound and five pound containers. And I have found accounts of powder fires. Which, deniers all explain away.

For a time I was following the Camp Minden explosions. This was a demilling facility and huge explosions were going on. I believe old deteriorated propellants were combusting, but, it could be workers tossing cigarette butts. After all, none of them want to continue living. So what do I know? My advice, you don't want one of things in your neighborhood, nothing closer than 90 miles away.!

New Information: Bunker blast at Camp Minden

By USAHM-News on October 19, 2012

https://usahitman.com/nibbacm/

6 arrested in Camp Minden explosives investigation

http://www.fox8live.com/story/22637088/la-company-managers-indicted-in-explosives-case

Camp Minden: From blast to possible burn
http://www.ktbs.com/story/28065933/camp-minden-from-blast-to-possible-burn

side note. All that surplus ammunition on the market was tested, and by the criteria in their manuals, it was determined to be unsafe to keep in storage, and unsafe to issue to their troops, by the originating agency. And you, silly you, come by and think it is day old bread because it has not hurt you, yet.

Old Powder Caused Fire!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=788841

First, sorry for the long post. Second, if I didn't know the people this happened to I would have a hard time believing this, I'd probably call this BS. I hunt at a property owned by someone I used to work with. All I have is his email address. I have been trying to contact him for several weeks via email. He lives over an hour a way and I hadn't tried to catch him at home yet. I finally got hold of him the other day. He apologized for not getting back to me sooner, but he had a house fire and had been dealing with that since the beginning of the month.

I drove there today. There was a trailer set up for his family to live in while the house gets restored. His wife was there when I got there. I asked her what happened. I couldn't believe her answer. Apparently my friends brother gave him about 15 pounds of gun powder for reloading about 10-15 years ago. It never got used. Sorry, I don't know what kind of powder it was. Their daughter just got out of the shower in the room next to where this powder was stored. She heard a WOOOOSH sound and came out of the bathroom to find the place in flames. It started where the old powder was stored.

Luckily, they were able to keep the fire down for a few minutes with an extinguisher and the fire dept responded in about 5, but there was some serious damage. I saw the spot where the powder was kept and the floor all around it charred, the rest of the place sustained heat and smoke damage. They were lucky they were home and someone got on this almost immediately or the place would have been a total loss. The BIL had some more of this powder at his home, he dumped it outside and lit it off. I'm sure he didn't know it would have made good fertilizer.

There was no other suspected cause of this fire than spontaneous combustion of this old gun powder. Has anyone heard of old un-stable gun powder just going up like this? I've got probably 20 pounds of powder in the next room and I'm sure many of you have more than that. After hearing this, I'm going to make sure it all gets used or at least smelled now and again if it sits for a few years. Green grass beats a burned home!
 

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