Confused... Handguns too powerful for self-defense?

Varminterror said:

Gun folk absolutely overthink, over-analyze, and over-debate meaningless paper or gel results to comfort themselves in their decision.

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What else are we supposed to do when we're not doing the pew pew thing?

Too much perceverating about calibers & shot placement and not enough thought about reducing the risk of conflict in the first place.

ATLDave said:

Uh... splits are just the quantification of the latter.

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My point is that if you can put 10rds of 9mm on target in say 3.5 seconds and it takes 4 seconds to put 10rds of .40 on target, that's fast enough for self defense usage, no reason to argue split times as it's meaningless. Sure the time can be measured for comparisons sake, but it's only trivial data.

Kleanbore said:

I cannot buy that, and neither does Rob Pincus or the folks at the FBI Training Academy at Quantico.

Nor do I see any reasonable basis for such an assertion.

Here's Rob: "Physics dictates that the 9mm is going to be a more manageable round (lower recoil) than the .40 S&W out of any particular firearm. So, no matter how much you train and how much you practice, everyone should be able to shoot a string of Combat Accurate 9mm rounds faster than they can fire a string of .40."

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Rob can say all he wants, I've heard other guys (cops) who have been in self defense shootings talk about how worrying about split times is useless, and it is because the assertion that one can shoot the 9mm faster than .40 may very well be true, but we're not talking about huge differences, thus why I said that anyone can shoot the .40 or .45 fast enough that it's pointless to obsess over fractions of a second. If the .40 takes me two tenths of a second more to put 5 rounds on target, I'm fine with that because it's a superior cartridge that cuts a bigger hole and does more damage. I care more about putting more hurt on an assailant than I do if it feels a bit softer to shoot, I don't carry to please my hand, but to stop a threat.

Kleanbore said:

Ah, another holdout in the science of handgun wounding ballistics.

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I believe frame size and first shot on target is more important than caliber.

I practiced considerably with a Glock 21 and can say without a doubt that the frame size and weight slowed down my first shot on target considerably compared to the next size smaller Glock frames (g17 and g22). Even if I thought 10mm is better for self defense, I would never carry one because the frame size is too big for me to draw quickly with a good grip (I won't carry a single stack 10mm because then I lose capacity.) Also we should consider frame size for one handed shooting.

We can only guess and speculate at the time it will take an attack to happen, not to mention the time to recognize and react. For me frame size and weight is more important than caliber. There is a chance that with a big heavy gun in 10mm or 44 Magnum, zero shots hit the target vs 1 or 2 shots on target from something small like a Glock 43x or a Sig 365.

We should all train and practice enough to know our own limitations. I know I'm quick with a medium frame gun so that's what I carry.

A round can penetrate like crazy and still not dump a lot of energy into the target or disrupt enough tissue to make an effective stopper.

That said, I think many concerns of “overpenetration” are overblown. Sure, in a crowded city street, it might stand a good chance of hitting an innocent bystander behind the legitimate threat, but in the vast majority of cases, your own missed shot is going to be doing that far more than a bullet which hits its mark, and most self defense isn’t conducted in crowded rooms or crowded streets. Sheet rock might not readily stop a handgun bullet, but a brick wall will, absolutely. So in an urban environment of steel and masonry....

Energy dump has been discarded has a relevant concept in handgun stopping power. So I'd move on from that.

GEM said:

Energy dump has been discarded has a relevant concept in handgun stopping power. So I'd move on from that.

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I tend to agree with you, but it’s a nice way to illustrate how a round can ice-pick through a target and not really impart a lot of effect on it, even if it’s a round known for its great “power,” like 7.62 Tok or 357 Sig. An FMJ which penetrates a great deal doesn’t necessarily disrupt a lot of tissue. The hollowpoint with functional, large expansion, is more effective at stopping the threat because it creates more tissue damage in the target. It creates more tissue damage because it can expand, and this allows it to act like a parachute and dump its energy in the target rather than carry its energy through the target and have the energy to penetrate other objects beyond the target.

But it's not the energy. The expansion and tissue damage by the physical impact of the round's material on tissue causes a bleed or damages nervous tissue. There's not a transfer of 'energy' as in a bolt of lightning or a laser beam.

No such thing as too much power when it comes to self defense

I love such silliness.

7 Yards

M&P .40 S&W - 5 Shots x 5 - Avg 1.10 seconds.

M&P 9x19mm - 5 Shots x 5 - Avg 1.08 seconds.

The 40 S&W averaged 2% slower and a slightly higher score.

If 16 vs 14 rounds make a difference shoot the 9mm. If a .045" bullet diameter makes a difference shoot the .40 but as far as I'm concerned you all would be better off spending this time dry firing. I'm going to take my own advice.

People make all sorts of wild claims about terminal ballistics. They'll say 10mm is too much, but in the next breath extoll the virtues of 357 Magnum.

My only problem with handguns is cops who have the time to grab their M4 and forgo it for their sidearm in active shooter situations. For us regular folk my advice is to carry whatever you shoot well, 22 or 44, only hits count.

george29 said:

My only problem with handguns is cops who have the time to grab their M4 and forgo it for their sidearm in active shooter situations. For us regular folk my advice is to carry whatever you shoot well, 22 or 44, only hits count.

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Cops do that because they are smarter than what people give them credit for. A 5.56 has 3 times the energy of a 9mm. In real life (away from the armchair scientists on the forum) more energy not only works better on living targets but also on hard targets. Cops know this.

wagonburner said:

Cops do that because they are smarter than what people give them credit for. A 5.56 has 3 times the energy of a 9mm. In real life (away from the armchair scientists on the forum) more energy not only works better on living targets but also on hard targets. Cops know this.

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Makes no sense what you wrote.

george29 said:

Makes no sense what you wrote.

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Ah, sorry I misread you statement. My bad. I thought you said cops always grab their ARs rather than their sidearms.

Cops do grab their ARs if they know there is an active shooter, but I suppose it’s procedure not to do so during other circumstances ... for good reason.

Mosin77 said:

Sheet rock might not readily stop a handgun bullet, but a brick wall will, absolutely. So in an urban environment of steel and masonry....

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I'm assuming you are talking about true masonry and not the brick veneer common in a suburban setting.

A good friend's two rounds had no problem penetrating the target and the front wall of his brick veneer house. Rounds were Remington .44 Magnum 240 gr JHP.

GEM said:

But it's not the energy. The expansion and tissue damage by the physical impact of the round's material on tissue causes a bleed or damages nervous tissue. There's not a transfer of 'energy' as in a bolt of lightning or a laser beam.

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Picking knits here, but this statement is incorrect. There most certainly IS a transfer of energy in any collision - that’s high school physics level stuff. Energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision, such kinetic energy, Work (change in kinetic energy on the bullet), and Power (rate of change in kinetic energy) are relatively poor predictors for relative wounding, but there absolutely is Work done and energy transferred.

In the most juvenile sense, no, there is not ELECTRICAL energy transferred, but electrons aren’t the only ones in the “Energy” game.

Trey Veston said:

I've seen multiple comments over the years that state that handguns are really barely marginal for self-defense and that a handgun is just a tool so you can get to your rifle.

Hence the caliber war stance that since all handgun calibers are so close it effectiveness, that it really doesn't matter what caliber you go with.

But then I've also seen multiple comments about the 10mm and other larger calibers being too powerful for self-defense due to penetration concerns.

So which is it?

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Part of the problem is the way you're phrasing the question.

I've never heard "all handgun calibers are so close it effectiveness, that it really doesn't matter what caliber you go with."

What I have heard is " there's no real difference in the performance characteristics of The Three Main Service Calibers."

10mm isn't that

Varminterror said:

Picking knits here, but this statement is incorrect. There most certainly IS a transfer of energy in any collision - that’s high school physics level stuff. Energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision, such kinetic energy, Work (change in kinetic energy on the bullet), and Power (rate of change in kinetic energy) are relatively poor predictors for relative wounding, but there absolutely is Work done and energy transferred.

In the most juvenile sense, no, there is not ELECTRICAL energy transferred, but electrons aren’t the only ones in the “Energy” game.

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True, but what I was trying to say was that a transfer of energy is not the destructive agent in handgun impacts as the poster was implying. With electricity or a laser beam, it's not a kinetic hit that gets you. The amount of kinetic energy won't knock you down from a handgun hit. The usual statement is that the energy dump , which you describe does something beyond the tissue disruption. Sorry that I was imprecise.

Trey Veston said:

So which is it?

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Trey Veston said:

Then in another conversation, the 10mm and .44 Magnum are described as too powerful for self-defense.

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The biggest issue when discussing 10mm and overpenetration is that all 10mm ammo is not equal. We have all these relatively standard loads for 9/40/45 where this bullet weight, goes this velocity, and attains this amount of expansion and penetration. However, with 10mm, ***especially when considering defensive loads*** the presupposition that 10mm automatically equals overpenetration is not always true.

Look at these 10mm loads out of a G20:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

Notice anything? The defensive ammos are designed to go between 12" and 20" of penetration. The only loads that blatantly run through two blocks of gel (over 32" of penetration) are the pumped up game loads that either didn't expand or were not meant to expand.

The point is that 10mm defensive loads are often downloaded so they don't overpenetrate, or they run lighter bullets that expand more with the additional velocity and reduce the ability to overpenetrate.

For instance, the 10mm Federal 180gr Hydra Shok averaged at 1002 fps, .61" expansion, and 15.9" of penetration.

Compare that with the 40S&W, tested in a G27. It shows the 180gr Federal Hydra Shok averaged 932 fps, .60" expansion, and 16.4" of penetration.
https://www.luckygunner.com/40-sw-180-gr-jhp-hdra-shok-federal-20-rounds#geltest

Yep, you read that right. The Federal loading for the short and weak out of a G27 is comparable to their 10mm load out of a G20.