Browning HiPower General Information Question

Caveat: I am by no means a Hi Power expert (I've owned exactly one and stupidly sold it after having enjoyed it for about 15 years) … but, I know the Mk IIs (like the one I had) later iterations came with a FPS, and most of the Mk IIIs were produced with it. IIRC it was a tab that blocked forward movement of the firing pin, which meant you could lower the hammer on a live chambered round (but didn't render the pistol "drop safe" if the rear of the hammer received a hard blow or the pistol was dropped and hit the deck hammer-first).

What I had observed overseas years ago was that the foreign military (UK and IDF) that carried the BHP carried them in Condition 3.

I carry a BHP with the SFS system. It's carried with the hammer down and the safety on.
When you push the safety down, the hammer flies back, ready to fire, just like a 1911 but, with a 13+1 capacity.

I've owned a number of Hi Powers since the '70s, carried one quite a bit, and still have a couple. The HPs all have inertia firing pins, so carrying in Condition 2 would be like carrying a pre Series 80 Colt, hammer down on a loaded chamber. I did carry my issued 1911A1 condition 2 in the military. But in carrying both 1911 and HP pistols since, I've only utilized Condition 1. Condition 2 safe? Chambering a round, then pulling the trigger to safely lower the hammer on that chambered round is asking for an ND. I had minimal training on 1911 type pistols in the military, so decided I would carry it that way, rather than the condition 3 mandated by policy. Not too bright on my part. I can't remember the last time I felt the need to manually lower the hammer on a chambered round. Many years ago in any case.

Reference the firing pin safety, the late MK IIs and MK IIIs have a FPS. Earlier guns do not. I saw the movie, but don't recall what HP version the star was carrying...

Rock185 said:

I've owned a number of Hi Powers since the '70s, carried one quite a bit, and still have a couple. The HPs all have inertia firing pins, so carrying in Condition 2 would be like carrying a pre Series 80 Colt, hammer down on a loaded chamber. I did carry my issued 1911A1 condition 2 in the military. But in carrying both 1911 and HP pistols since, I've only utilized Condition 1. Condition 2 safe? Chambering a round, then pulling the trigger to safely lower the hammer on that chambered round is asking for an ND. I had minimal training on 1911 type pistols in the military, so decided I would carry it that way, rather than the condition 3 mandated by policy. Not too bright on my part. I can't remember the last time I felt the need to manually lower the hammer on a chambered round. Many years ago in any case.

Reference the firing pin safety, the late MK IIs and MK IIIs have a FPS. Earlier guns do not. I saw the movie, but don't recall what HP version the star was carrying...

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Eddie carried what looks to be a C series based on the spur hammer, half moon sights and wood grips. That gun would not have had a firing pin safety. Once could carry it condition 2 but i do not know of anyone who does. Like a 70 series 1911 if struck hard enough on the hammer it could cause the gun to fire. It is fairly unlikely but it could happen. Lots of people have successfully lowered hammer on a chambered round. The CZ 75 and 75B have no decocker yet people carry them in a DA/SA mode all the time. Yes people doing this have cause NDs but the same can be said of people holstering Glocks. Tactically I think it is a poor choice buy YMMV.

Trunk Monkey said:

...his HiPower in condition two.

I'm just wondering is the BHP have a firing pin block? Is it safe to carry it that way?

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Condition two and the presence of firing pin safety are really not connected. Without a firing pin safety it doesn't matter if the thumb safety is engaged, or if the hammer is down, the firing pin is free to move about the channel, the forward movement is only stopped by the firing pin spring.

Here's the thing with those firing pin safeties - they only have value when the gun lands muzzle down and the firing pin mass is high enough to overcome the firing pin spring, or when the hammer gets whacked hard enough to unseat it off the sear, or if the hammer is down on a loaded chamber and the hammer gets whacked hard enough to set off the primer. The first one is something like 17 feet according to US military tests, the last has been known to be dangerous since the days of the Old West, which leaves us with the second case, which probably varies by gun design, but the thumb safety blocks the hammer from moving. So how much value is a firing pin safety?

Nuclear said:

Here's the thing with those firing pin safeties - they only have value when the gun lands muzzle down and the firing pin mass is high enough to overcome the firing pin spring, ... The first one is something like 17 feet according to US military tests,

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I'm a little skeptical of your 17 foot number.

Here are some 1911 drop tests by Drake Oldham, which put the height more like five or six feet.

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

Late Mk II and all MK III have the firing pin block (FPB)

Unlike the S80 mod on the 1911, the BHP FPB does not add additional components or springs to the mechanism and does not affect the feel of the trigger pull. Rather, it is accomplished by machining a cut under the rear of the FP channel and adding a "paddle" onto the end of the existing sear lever that fits into the cut and blocks the FP. From my perspective, there is zero downside and a real (though be it small) up side to having the FPB on a BHP.

I'm not sure how anyone can distinguish between condition 2 & 3 by looking at a BHP from a distance. There is no loaded chamber indicator and you can not engage the safety with the hammer down.

When the hammer is fully cocked, the sear rotates under pressure of the sear spring to engage the hammer hooks. When the sear is in this orientation, you can rotate the thumb safety upwards and (if fitted correctly) the stepped post on the inside face of the thumb safety will be able to just slide upwards and engage with the tab on the bottom side of the sear. The safety does not directly engage the hammer to prevent it from falling, rather it prevents the sear from rotating and the sear prevents the hammer from falling.

If you lower the hammer after chambering a round, the sear should engage the captive half cock notch (more like a 7/8 cock notch) in the hammer. This will prevent any inertial forces or physical contact with the hammer from moving it forward, thus it can't strike the firing pin.

As noted previously, the FP floats in its channel. The FP spring will oppose inertial forces on the FP. But the hammer spring is heavier and along with the momentum of the hammer, it will overcome the FP spring when the sear is tripped and the hammer dropped, allowing the FP to move forward and poke the primer on the chambered cartridge. The FP is actually pretty skinny and light when compared to a 1911 FP and should not generate a lot of inertial forces. However some folks install a reduced power FP spring when doing a trigger job, to ensure reliable ignition with reduced force hammer springs. Under these circumstances a properly functioning FPB is especially important.

Aside for the risk of having a unintended discharge when lowering the hammer onto a loaded chamber, I see no reason to not carry in condition 2. And with the captive half cock notch, it's much easier to perform this maneuver correctly. You want to securely hold the hammer, pull the trigger to trip the sear, then let the hammer go forward just a bit, and then release the trigger so the sear will follow the arc on the top of the hammer and ride it into the captive half cock notch.

JTQ: The 17 foot number was from a government 1911 test (I'm still trying to re-find the link). I've found various other tests that claimed from 3 feet up to over 15. You are still landing muzzle down, so the bullet is shooting into the ground, pavement, floor, etc., and then ricocheting, fragmenting or punching through the floor in the worst case scenarios.

I'd like to see the test referenced in your post, but not enough to join freeshell.org

Trunk Monkey: or we could just assume neither the actor or the "technical consultant" knew any better.

Rock185 said:

Chambering a round, then pulling the trigger to safely lower the hammer on that chambered round is asking for an ND... I can't remember the last time I felt the need to manually lower the hammer on a chambered round. Many years ago in any case.

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You should go to a USPSA match then... the thrill of watching a dozen or more competitors in production and carry optics divisions manually lowering the hammers on their CZ's and Tanfo's on every single stage would be quite something. Having RO'ed several thousand manual hammer-lowerings, they no longer give me the willies.

Nuclear said:

I'd like to see the test referenced in your post, but not enough to join freeshell.org

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Oooh, when I posted the link, it had the test information readily available. You're right though, now I can't get to it. That is weird.

Forum member Slamfire was able to grab the numbers and post them in this thread from 2016.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...afe-hammer-cocked.809303/page-2#post-10345566

Nuclear said:

JTQ: The 17 foot number was from a government 1911 test ...

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To your numbers, there is this http://sightm1911.com/lib/tech/inertial_discharge.htm

I'm also skeptical of the "lawyer levers" comments regarding firing pin safeties. The Swartz firing pin safety was developed at Colt in the 1930's, a time when lawsuits against gun makers probably weren't that common. If drop safety wasn't an issue, Colt probably wouldn't have developed the device. Had it not been for WW II, chances are good all 1911's would have had a firing pin safety beginning in the early 1940's.

Trunk Monkey said:

The actor I believe but Gilbert Hill was an experienced cop who (presumably) owned and carried a BHP as a part of his daily duties for several years.

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Tactics and techniques change over the years.

We have several very experienced gun folks on the forum that prefer Condition 2, still. I'm not one of them, and I wouldn't recommend it, but if they want to use it, it's not my concern.

I've carried, and had around me, both 1911's and BHPs in condition 2 over the years. Jeff Cooper used to argue, while alive, that condition 2 was quite useful in many situations. I've found it so.

Of course over the years I've lowered hammers on live rounds with revolvers, lever guns, shotguns, and a variety of pistols. So it becomes "natural" more accurately not un-normal or unusual. I've never had confidence with de-cockers. But then I tend to trust myself around guns.

Never lower a hammer when you are stressed, hyped up on adrenaline, drunk or while being attacked by space aliens riding raccoons. Point the muzzle in a safe direction and lower to the safety notch or all the way down if you care to, and maintain control throughout. A properly built 1911 can be de-cocked with one hand and was built to be. But I most always prefer and use two, it's safer.

If one lowers the hammer all the way down on a live round on a Hi-Power, then dropping the pistol on it will not be an issue... Actually, it's way more safer that way than carrying the gun with hammer resting on the half cock/safety notch. Because inertial firing pin...