Revolver
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Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy
Definitely a Black Powder Iver Johnson. Sometime around the turn of the Century (1900) Iver Johnson completely redesigned their line of revolvers. In addition to using better steel, to withstand with the pressures of Smokeless ammunition, there were several design changes.
Three ways to tell a Black Powder Iver Johnson from a Smokeless one.
On a Smokeless Iver Johnson the little owl faces backwards on the grips, the hammer spring is a coil spring, and the cylinder locking slots have a hard edge both top and bottom.
This is a Smokeless Iver Johnson. Yes, the grips could be from another gun, but this one has a coil main spring.
The easiest way to tell is the configuration of the cylinder locking slots. Notice the difference in the appearance of these locking slots to the OP's gun. With the BP guns, the bolt only locked the cylinder in one direction, the hand kept the cylinder from rolling backwards. With this configuration, the bolt was captured on both sides by the locking slots.
According to the BATF, any firearm manufactured before 1899 can be considered an antique. Period. No, I do not have the date of that revolver handy, but that is the definition of an antique firearm in the US.
It is correct that prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, Serial Numbers were not required on firearms. However most of the quality manufacturers, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Winchester, Marlin, and most others were putting Serial Numbers on their firearms from the beginning. I do have an old Stevens Side X Side shotgun that does not have a SN, so clearly it was made before 1968. However it is not an antique.
Definitely a Black Powder Iver Johnson. Sometime around the turn of the Century (1900) Iver Johnson completely redesigned their line of revolvers. In addition to using better steel, to withstand with the pressures of Smokeless ammunition, there were several design changes.
Three ways to tell a Black Powder Iver Johnson from a Smokeless one.
On a Smokeless Iver Johnson the little owl faces backwards on the grips, the hammer spring is a coil spring, and the cylinder locking slots have a hard edge both top and bottom.
This is a Smokeless Iver Johnson. Yes, the grips could be from another gun, but this one has a coil main spring.
The easiest way to tell is the configuration of the cylinder locking slots. Notice the difference in the appearance of these locking slots to the OP's gun. With the BP guns, the bolt only locked the cylinder in one direction, the hand kept the cylinder from rolling backwards. With this configuration, the bolt was captured on both sides by the locking slots.
According to the BATF, any firearm manufactured before 1899 can be considered an antique. Period. No, I do not have the date of that revolver handy, but that is the definition of an antique firearm in the US.
It is correct that prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, Serial Numbers were not required on firearms. However most of the quality manufacturers, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Winchester, Marlin, and most others were putting Serial Numbers on their firearms from the beginning. I do have an old Stevens Side X Side shotgun that does not have a SN, so clearly it was made before 1968. However it is not an antique.
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Phil from Kansas
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Because of your double post top latch this is a 2nd model, so 1896-1908.
tightgroup tiger
Member
Thank you Driftwood Johnson for the information. Excellent as always.
Colonel Harumpf (spelling), One of our members, I can't ping him like I did Driftwood Johnson, has Goforths book on Iver Johnsons and he could come close on the year it was made, but you will still only get a range of a couple years I believe from the serial number. If it's a couple years before 1899, since yours is definitely a black powder gun, there is maybe a change that you can prove antique status on it.
If you were looking for a smokeless powder gun to shoot, that ain't it.
Some people are shooting smokeless powder loads in them but I'm not one of them and I'm not going there.
Look at the bolt cuts in Driftwood Johnson's picture, that is what you want to look for in a smokeless IJ revolver. You can shoot today's factory loads in those.
Colonel Harumpf (spelling), One of our members, I can't ping him like I did Driftwood Johnson, has Goforths book on Iver Johnsons and he could come close on the year it was made, but you will still only get a range of a couple years I believe from the serial number. If it's a couple years before 1899, since yours is definitely a black powder gun, there is maybe a change that you can prove antique status on it.
If you were looking for a smokeless powder gun to shoot, that ain't it.
Some people are shooting smokeless powder loads in them but I'm not one of them and I'm not going there.
Look at the bolt cuts in Driftwood Johnson's picture, that is what you want to look for in a smokeless IJ revolver. You can shoot today's factory loads in those.
Can anyone give me an exact year the model of my iver Johnson was made?
Is there any difference between my model Nd the first original model?
Would you guys as experts consider my model a reproduction, replace, or a copy of the original first model ?
Is there a easy way to find out if my model was made before or after 1898?
Is there any difference between my model Nd the first original model?
Would you guys as experts consider my model a reproduction, replace, or a copy of the original first model ?
Is there a easy way to find out if my model was made before or after 1898?
I hope you can find what you are looking for. There would be no direct copies of your IJ gun but there were several cheaply made top break pistols made during the same time period. They draw little interest to collectors and therefore information regarding them is rather scarce. They typically bring less than $100 for used guns. Particularly black powder versions as they can not be fired with the available down loaded ammo of today. Pristine examples , particularly that have the original boxes , do draw some collector interest. So to be honest , hardly anyone cares enough about your gun to spend much time on researching by serial number. I would think someone has, but if they are not on this forum you might find it difficult to get an answer. No easy way.
I have my great grandmothers IJ revolver and load up BP ammo for it. I take it out every once in a great while for a bit of fun. My GGM shot a burglar in the leg with it in like the 20s, so you know I have a soft spot in my head/heart for that old IJ. She was a firecracker when she was younger...........................
Coyote3855
Member
You have heard from a number of Experts in this group who have provided you with a great deal of accurate information about your revolver. You have a firearm that probably sold new for less than $5. As noted by previous posters who have attempted to answer your questions, there is limited data about your gun. Your attitude is a bit off-putting.
Coyote3855
Member
I apologize for a harsh post.
jar
Contributing Member
To the best of my knowledge the last two near experts on Iver Johnson, Harrington & Richardson or Hopkins & Allen handguns died not all that long ago. There are some books that might be found as references. Search for books by Bill Goforth.
H&R
Iver Johnson
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Jim Watson
Member
Heck, the books are worth more than the guns.
Similar to Clawson on 1911s, his books are themselves collectors items.
I was thinking about the $20 Vorosek books.
Similar to Clawson on 1911s, his books are themselves collectors items.
I was thinking about the $20 Vorosek books.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
There were never very good records available for those guns even 100 years ago, and what there were have now been largely lost, along with the people most familiar with them.
They were inexpensive guns of rather weak design made for low-powered cartridges and are now considered generally unsafe to shoot unless they have had a thorough examination and restoration by a qualified gunsmith, but the cost of such work is more than the gun is worth.
If it is a family heirloom, you are probably best served by not attempting to shoot it and finding it a nice display box.
They were inexpensive guns of rather weak design made for low-powered cartridges and are now considered generally unsafe to shoot unless they have had a thorough examination and restoration by a qualified gunsmith, but the cost of such work is more than the gun is worth.
If it is a family heirloom, you are probably best served by not attempting to shoot it and finding it a nice display box.
I don't have a physical specimen of an Iver Johnson to look at, but the posted pictures shows a sear in the trigger guard, which is not in this period ad:
However, the sear is in this ad:
Now, I don't believe for one minute that Sears owned a firearms factory. These retailer's would lie and lie about owning watch companies, furniture manufacturer's, etc, because it helped sell product and promoted their brand. Instead, they commissioned existing manufacturer's to make things under their label.
Now, I think whom ever was making the A.J. Aubrey brand, made your pistol. Sort of looks H&R to me. And I would not shoot anything in an offbrand 1908 period pistol, I don't trust the metallurgy.
However, the sear is in this ad:
Now, I don't believe for one minute that Sears owned a firearms factory. These retailer's would lie and lie about owning watch companies, furniture manufacturer's, etc, because it helped sell product and promoted their brand. Instead, they commissioned existing manufacturer's to make things under their label.
Now, I think whom ever was making the A.J. Aubrey brand, made your pistol. Sort of looks H&R to me. And I would not shoot anything in an offbrand 1908 period pistol, I don't trust the metallurgy.
Jim Watson
Member
Models varied over time, the 1908 IJ Hammerless shows a Glockish safety tab in the trigger, which seems not common in surviving examples.
"The Meriden Firearms Company was formed when Sears Roebuck purchased the Andrew Fyrberg & Sons firearms manufacturing plant and moved the plant and machinery to Meriden, Connecticut in 1905. The company started manufacturing firearms mid 1905. In 1918 Sears announced that the Meriden Firearms Company would discontinue the manufacture of sporting firearms.
From 1905 to 1919, Sears manufactured their line of "pocket pistols", which were double-action top-break revolvers chambered in either .32 S&W or .38 S&W. The revolvers came in several barrel lengths and were offered with both exposed and enclosed hammers. Finish was Nickel-plated with rubber handgrips."
More history at
http://www.meridenfirearms.com/history.html
"The Meriden Firearms Company was formed when Sears Roebuck purchased the Andrew Fyrberg & Sons firearms manufacturing plant and moved the plant and machinery to Meriden, Connecticut in 1905. The company started manufacturing firearms mid 1905. In 1918 Sears announced that the Meriden Firearms Company would discontinue the manufacture of sporting firearms.
From 1905 to 1919, Sears manufactured their line of "pocket pistols", which were double-action top-break revolvers chambered in either .32 S&W or .38 S&W. The revolvers came in several barrel lengths and were offered with both exposed and enclosed hammers. Finish was Nickel-plated with rubber handgrips."
More history at
http://www.meridenfirearms.com/history.html
I have about a dozen of these old top break pistols from IJ and H&R as well as a couple other off brand guns. Most need some work but I have another small group of top breaks from S&W which I am working on restoring to shooting condition. My health has not cooperated so I am concentrating on the better built and more valuable S&W examples when I feel well enough to do the work.. Not sure I will ever get to the cheap ones. I did do a couple of original 2 inch barrel bicycle guns. One IJ and the other a H&R. Sold them on GB but the price wasn't worth the effort to mess with them. The more common 4 inch version ones aren't worth spit.
bikerdoc
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The wealth of knowledge here never ceases to amaze me.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
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I'm into this field as well. I haven't tried my hand at flipping them after fixing them since I've had my hands full just with the repair part of the process but it's been lot of relatively cheap firearms related fun. One of my favorites is my Smith and Wesson .32 New Departure with the single button latch. I paid $60 on gunbroker and all it needed was a new firing pin spring. I even scored a box of mixed Remington and Peters .32s&w balloon head cased blackpowder loaded ammo. Very interesting stuff.
I'm into this field as well. I haven't tried my hand at flipping them after fixing them since I've had my hands full just with the repair part of the process but it's been lot of relatively cheap firearms related fun. One of my favorites is my Smith and Wesson .32 New Departure with the single button latch. I paid $60 on gunbroker and all it needed was a new firing pin spring. I even scored a box of mixed Remington and Peters .32s&w balloon head cased blackpowder loaded ammo. Very interesting stuff.
Steel Hayes
Member
5 shot cylinder with single pole extractor would make it a second model 6th variation(no caliber marking on the barrel and double post latch).
.38 S&W black powder.
Serial number places it at 1899.
This is from Mr. Goforths book
.38 S&W black powder.
Serial number places it at 1899.
This is from Mr. Goforths book
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