VA - More on Open Carry - Some good, some flak (or is it "flake"?)

And turn it will, if the general "sheeple" public (golly how superior we are to those bleating soccer mommys) gets annoyed enough watching cocked and locked 45s at Starbucks.

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And should publishers what they print, because they'll annoy the wrong people? Why publish books with information on explosives? Just going to contribute to terrorism, right? So don't print them or they'll be banned?

I see that Mr. I'llAskHer has responded.

He is on my ignore list (since I have vowed to refuse to read a bunch of dumbassedwordsallstucktogetherwithoutspaces) so I don't know what kind of DA response he made, (Probably some kind of "submit to authority" BS), but my point remains.

The Founders were clear. Keep and Bear is not to be infringed. I don't have to justify it. Read it and weep.

Edited to note that he is the ONLY guy on my ignore list.

Uh, then why comment on what you have'nt read?

This "It's my right, screw you, I don't have to justify anything" attitude is what will never win any converts. The point to a civilized society is just that - to recognize that we form a society and not just a collection of individuals. The pursuit of happiness applies to everyone, not just you.

I have the right to not take showers. However, I do not have the right to offend everyone with offensive odors. Stinking and farting may be OK in the back 40, but not Starbucks. Some things are just rude and selfish.

Right not exercised? WTH, do you carry a ballot puncher around just in case a special election pops up? Who here enjoys being approached by some cultist in the airport? No one has said that they supported no-carry. If you do not qualify for a CCH permit, get qualified, dont put everyone else out so you can shortcut the rules. I hope that you are first to support the library when somebody complains about "Donny has Two Daddys." People here tend to get real sanctimonious about their rights, but not necessarily everyone else's

I hate being second to anyone, but please, put me on your ignore list also.

Back it up my friend...back it up with facts....

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From the Connections article in this thread:

When [Del. Chap Petersen (D-37)] first went to Richmond in 2002, he was assigned to the House Committee on Militia and Police where members of the audience often openly carried their guns inside the hearing rooms of the General Assembly building. At first, Petersen said he was surprised.

"It was kind of like something out of 'Gunsmoke,'" he said. "I'm not used to seeing people show up at public meetings with Colt 45s strapped to their belt."

Over the years, however, he said he got "inured" to the sight.
"They're always there and they're always packing heat," he said. "It's a different culture."

Petersen, who is running for Lieutenant Governor is 2005, voted in favor of the bill preventing local governments from passing their own rules on guns.

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Here's a Democrat legislator from Fairfax (the heart of northern VA), obviously not 100% pro-gun-rights, who has gotten used to open carry due to seeing law-abiding Virginians (mostly VCDL members) carrying inside the General Assembly, and he voted for the law the pre-empted all of the local bans on open carry and led to the current media outcry.

Having just read this entire thread in one sitting I noted that without exception those who are currently active LEO's (anyone who has been here on THR a while knows who the active LEO's are) are against open carry. The overwhelming majority of everyone else is either neutral or pro-open carry (WildAlaska being a notable but consistant, stick to his guns, gotta respect that, don't upset the people unecessarily, exception).

That's gotta mean something...

I think it means that LEO's only trust themselves with guns and the heck with the rest of us.

How very, very sad that is...
How very, very dangerous that is...

[said using Mr. Rogers voice]
OK boys and girls. Can anyone say "Police State"?

Wrong

None of the LEOs here have said or done anything to proscribe a citizen's right to be armed. None have come out anti-CCW. IIRC correctly, most, including myself, have said that there are times and places when open carry is perfectly fine. We are asking for this thing called "common sense and discretion". The public expects it of us, we expect it of you.

I think that there is a myth that open carry was at one time the norm. It may have well been, 300 years ago. Spaghetti westerns are not necessarily a good depiction of modern American cultural history.

None of the LEOs here have said or done anything to proscribe a citizen's right to be armed

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Though the above is on its face true; it is irrelevant regarding the issue of open carry and this particular thread for it avoids the issue.

What is true is that the active LEO's posting in this thread have in every case been anti-open carry. Being anti-open carry does not in and of itself imply anti-RKBA or anit-CCW. The feeling I get is that LEO's object to open carry for the same reasons WildAlaska so freely postulates - it has a very great potential to disturb the peace and when push comes to shove it is a LEO's job to assure the peace; open carry would in the near term and short run do nothing to assure the peace. Thus it is reasonable that LEO's would be anti-open carry. Not productive, not IMHO acceptable but reasonable.

Unfortunately it occasionally requires disturbing the peace to educate those who are disturbed concerning the rights of others. The most glaring example of this is the black lady who refused to sit in the back of the bus and started a civil rights movement that has made great progress and continues to this day.

Why are gun owners any less deserving of their rights because they are disturbing to others than the people of that courageous lady who refused to go to the back of the bus. Are we less courageous? Are we any less deserving?

Well, I'm an LEO in N. VA and I object whole heartily to open carry and here is why: It is tactically RETARDED. I see way too many wanna be gunfighters that think just bc they have a glock strapped to their hip in a POS fobus holster, that they are somehow immune from crime. The reality, as I have seen time and again is that they make themselves more of a target and an easier victim.

First, unless a person has had mountains of retention training and is using a level 3 retention holster...and is walking around in condition yellow constantly, never sits outboard at any theater, restaurant, concert etc, then they are setting themselves up for a gun grab.

Second, open carry negates the element of surprise and in a gunfight, fractions of a second count. You are identifying yourself to the BG, but you don't know who he is yet...see the disadvantage?

And lastly, it just scares people and attracts unwanted (although in the case of most newbie's, they like the "Attention") attention. It gets old for kids to yell out "Daddy, he has a gun" and everybody to turn and look. When that happens, you just got made and gave up any semblance of a tactical advantage which is the whole reason for having the gun in the first place...unless you just want to look cool.

None of the LEOs are saying open carry is wrong or that it should be illegal. We are saying that it is stupid and often done by wannabees to show off their new "Piece".

Once again cloaked in sanctimony...

Her name is Rosa Parks, if you are going to exploit her at least have the decency to use her name. You have no more right to disturb the peace than anyone else. The attitude that everyone must bend to your will is egocentric, rude, selfish and for most of us got left behind in the second grade. You have the right to keep and bear arms, not the right to be a general prong. People have the right to listen to the stereo in their cars. They do not have the right to play there stereos so loudly as to intrude on everyone else at the intersection's life' liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You have no right to make other people concerned or frightened. It is not all about you.

Once again the same old tired arguments are trotted out........

Her name is Rosa Parks, if you are going to exploit her at least have the decency to use her name. You have no more right to disturb the peace than anyone else.

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And at the time Rosa Parks had no more right to disturb the peace than anyone else by exercising her right to sit in the front of the bus either.

If Mrs. Parks had used your logic she and all the rest of the minorities in the USA would still be sitting in the back of the bus.

[sarcasm mode on]
Of course then the peace would have been maintained and the USA would be a better place - wouldn't it?
[sarcasm mode off]

Blacks constituted about 9% of the population back then.
Gunowners constitute about 25% of the current population.

I ask again are our rights any less precious than the rights of blacks in the 1950's? Hey if anyone thinks they are then come right out and say it. We're all friends here. To me it's six of one and half a dozen of the other - in other words no different to me but it may be to others. If so then say so and why.

The streets haven't run red with the blood of armed maniacs because of CCW and there won't be any gunfights in the streets because of open carry. Open carry is just another way to go armed into the world.

Carrying open may be dumb (I think in 95% of carry situations it is) but that is neither here nor there. Those that want to do it should be allowed to do it if the law permits - as it does in many jurisdictions. It doesn't matter what the people think about that. It is either legal or it isn't and if it is then screw those who object. They need to just learn to deal with it or they need to take the appropriate political actions to get the law changed. It's as simple as that.

The big deal about all of this is that it is illegal to carry concealed while in a restaurant in VA. So it's either 'leave your gun in the truck' or carry openly in the restaurant. When the law says that you must carry openly, there's no choice. If I lived in VA, I would carry concealed until I stepped into the restaurant, then switch to open carry. If the restaurant owners don't like that, they need to help get that stupid law changed so I can put my shirt over it.

Also, I have a PA license to carry. I'm not buying a VA LTC just so that I can carry while riding through VA and stopping for gas maybe once while driving to/from FL two times a year. I am allowed to open carry, so when I get out of the car to pay-at-the-pump and fuel up, the gun is on my hip. When (if) we get reciprocal with VA, you can bet it will be concealed. But I've heard enough interstate horror stories that I'm NOT traveling long distances unarmed. Especially when you don't know the areas you may be stopping. However, I am careful to keep turned away from people if I can help it, and use my right arm to help cover it so I don't draw any more attention to myself than necessary.

My point is that you shouldn't paint all open carriers as inconsiderate, in-your-face 'look at me' types. Sometimes you have to make do with what you have. In my case, the law forces me to carry openly; if not for the trip itself, for the times we may stop at a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol. And if it makes someone uncomfortable, then I guess we just need to make sure that we can carry concealed everywhere, don't we?

Mr. FedDC said:

The reality, as I have seen time and again is that they make themselves more of a target and an easier victim.

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Cite?

Could you cite?

Not time and again, just cite 2 or 3.

That would be fine.

with respect...

FEDDC said:
"Well, I'm an LEO in N. VA and I object whole heartily to open carry and here is why: It is tactically RETARDED."

[SS] So, why do patrol officers open carry?

I see way too many wanna be gunfighters that think just bc they have a glock strapped to their hip in a POS fobus holster, that they are somehow immune from crime.

[SS] Those are backwards; it should read 'fobus and pos glock strapped...'


The reality, as I have seen time and again is that they make themselves more of a target and an easier victim.

[SS] Ante up then! show us police reports of someone being targeted and made an easier victim.


First, unless a person has had mountains of retention training and is using a level 3 retention holster...and is walking around in condition yellow constantly, never sits outboard at any theater, restaurant, concert etc, then they are setting themselves up for a gun grab.

[SS] You mean, like most patrol officers ?

Second, open carry negates the element of surprise and in a gunfight, fractions of a second count. You are identifying yourself to the BG, but you don't know who he is yet...see the disadvantage?

[SS] Actually, yes, we do. But, you are ignoring some salient facts Fed. Most importantly; the non upper caste here in Virginia need to either open carry or go disarmed in a restaurant. You are asserting that it is in the best interest of all that these people abrogate their right to bear arms...
Are you even the least bit familiar with Bliss v. Commonwealth, and Nunn vs. State ?

I didn't think so. They are to early and significant cases concerning the right to keep and bear arms. Nunn ( I believe this was chronologically the 1st, but someone jump in if that's not true ) put forth the doctrine that a right may have the regulation of the manner of exercise and be constitutional, but it may not be restricted to the point of obscurity such that it's exercise is for all practical purposes, eliminated. - in other words, and particular to Nunn, concealing is a privilege which may be regulated. Bliss ruled otherwise, and before (KY) ... The principle that concealed arms may be regulated and that it is a legitimate exercise of the police power carries forward to this day (see Klein v. Leis). The exercise of the privilege of carrying a concealed firearm has absolutely nothing to do with the exercise of the right to keep and BEAR arms, in the open, as any gentleman would ( would have in the early days of the Colonies )...

It is the only refuge of the citizen which is protected here in Virginia who wants to eat at an ABC restaurant. As many in LE are fond of saying to the public "Don't blame us, blame the General Assembly!" That applies here. Get the VA G.A. to recognize that concealed carry of arms is also constitutionally protected (thus eliminating the hated restaurant ban on concealed carry) and perhaps you'll see less citizens giving you the willies.



And lastly, it just scares people and attracts unwanted (although in the case of most newbie's, they like the "Attention") attention. It gets old for kids to yell out "Daddy, he has a gun" and everybody to turn and look. When that happens, you just got made and gave up any semblance of a tactical advantage which is the whole reason for having the gun in the first place...unless you just want to look cool.

[SS] I will qualify this by attempting to leverage some perspective first. I have been open carrying routinely to be legal in restaurants, and once in a while, transiting to and from whatever restaurant in Virginia for years now. I do not prefer carrying a firearm openly for my own reasons. Some of those are common with assertions you have made, but because I am less comfortable with it, not because I am asserting these as fact. Not once, in any of these times has some kid done that. I have been "made" open carrying perhaps 4 times in several years, all by folks in a restaurant wanting to talk. I'm sure others have noticed, but not called out and "Made" me... If I were of the privileged class here in VA, I believe that I would conceal almost all the time, but, that option isn't there for us sometimes. For the record, if you check the VA Alerts archive, VCDL does not advocate one way or the other whether you should carry open, or concealed.


None of the LEOs are saying open carry is wrong or that it should be illegal. We are saying that it is stupid and often done by wannabees to show off their new "Piece".

[SS] So, we are Legal to do it, but Stupid and Retarded, and therefore, the commoners shouldn't do it, right?

Nobody here is (despite WW's commentary) disturbing the Peace, committing a common law breach of the peace, or even hurting anybody's feelings... Except maybe state Senator Janet Howell, but that's another thread. I can't speak for the others here, but I don't personally open carry to educate anybody, but I will open carry, in the circumstances that are legal, and hopefully without drawing a great deal of attention to myself.

I thought this was the High Road. The point could've been made without making everyone who open carries out to be idiots. How long before this turns into cop bashing? If you want a glimpse into why more and more folks have disdain and lack of respect for law officers, this attitude typifies it.

Y'all will do what y'all will do

Wrap yourself in the flag and smear yourself with apple pie, it still does'nt change the fact that universal open carry is not socially acceptable in the US at large, nor will it be if it is forced down the publics throat.

As soon as an open carrier gets lynched, then you can play the race card. Until then any comparison to the civil rights movement of blacks in this country is reprehensible. You guys are whining 'cause somebody looked cross-eyed at you in Starbucks and you cannot get into a permit premise with a concealed gun - oh, the horror of it all.

No further, go about your marching like every other fringe group. You'll be taken about as seriously.

Well as a resident of Fairfax County with a CCW permit for almost 10 years, I thought I would wade into the debate with my own perspectives and impressions on this issue. Northern Virginia, due to its proximity to D.C., is a world apart from the rest of Virginia. When I think of Northern Virginia, I think of the following counties/areas: Fairfax, Arlington, Alexandria, and to a lesser extent Loudon. From what I've seen and read, open carry in the rest of Virginia isn't much of a concern. I've got family and friends in Southern/Central Virginia (Nelson County) and open carry isn't an issue there.

We've got alot of good posts here and I can certainly understand and respect FedDC's opinion. After reading a recent article in the Washington Post, seeing the pictures and then reading FedDC's statement:

Wild is right, these knuckleheads that feel a need to flaunt their carry have done more to set back the CCW movement than anything I have seen in years. Just wait and you will see other states passing laws against this very thing based on the fear of their people...

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I am starting to fear the same. My fears won't settle until we see what legislation the local politicians try to introduce. Personally I think it would be difficult to repeal open carry, but it's still not out of the realm of possibilities. I also disagree with FedDC's comment regarding those who choose to open carry are

wanna be gunfighters.

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I've got no choice. As long as Virginia prevents individuals with CCW permits to carry concealed in establishments that serve alcohol, I (we) have to open carry to eat at those places. I don't understand the reason(s) for Virginia to deny concealed carry in establishments that serve alcohol because, I believe, this was allowed pre-1995. More often now and it's ashame we have to, my wife and I are going to establishments to eat that do not serve alcohol to avoid any potential problems with open carry.

All this attention regarding open carry in Virginia, positive and negative, may act like a double-edge sword. On the one side we need the attention to educate the citizens and local law enforcement that open carry is legal. If all the "sheepeople" don't want to see these handguns, they need to help change the current restrictions and allow CCW in establishments that serve alcohol. But on the other side, cramming all these images of legal open "gun toting" scares the hell out of soccor moms and the Sarah Bradys in Northern Virginia.

We've got a hellava "Catch 22" here.

For the Cropwalkieboy:

Edited to note that he is the ONLY guy on my ignore list.

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Thank gawd..I hate engaging in battles of wits with the unarmed

For Sedec, a note and answer to the question:

Uh, then why comment on what you have'nt read?

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He does read it..its like the preacher sneakin looks at porno..in his case, its that he has to sneak looks at rational discourse...forbidden and hated, but o so attractive and desireable...

And Roadrunner...excellent and resonable analysis...

WildpostnasldripAlaska

The name-calling on this thread is just about as tasteful as the running commentary on WildsnotnoseAlaska's cold.

TC
TFL Survivor

Gotta agree with Roadrunner. He said what I've been saying in private since this started. This is really getting blown out of proportion though. I doubt the number of "open carriers" has increased much. The new law just made it more visible I guess.

Hey Roadrunner, you going to the gunshow this w/e? Mebbe we can get some of the NoVa 4Runner club members to go and have an impromptu meet there. Heck, with all the new births (I think a total of three births in the past year), we could have a "baby show" too.


Chris

"Northern Virginia, due to its proximity to D.C., is a world apart from the rest of Virginia."

Those NoVa folks thought they were something special many years ago. I've never figured out why. Way back when they aspired to be like Montgomery County MD. Now I see that Fairfax County has more than a million people and most of them are stuck in traffic. Oh well. I suppose it's progress.

Meanwhile, I want to be able to carry a concealed gun into a deli or pizza place at lunch so I don't have to leave it in the car or carry it openly. It used to be legal and should be again.

John...Richard Montgomery H.S., Rockville, Montgomery County MD, class of 1960-something.

Hey Chris,

How have you and the family been? I can't believe my daugther is almost 3 months old. As scared as I was about starting a family with my wife and raising our first child; it's been one of my greatest joys.

I am definately looking forward to the Dulles show end of July. Still trying to figure out which day to go, Sat or Sun. The vendors may be more inclined to barter a deal on Sunday, the last day of the show. I need to check which day my wife is off so she can watch the baby.

Here's the link if anyone else is interested:
http://www.cegunshows.com/dulles_ad.htm

Now I see that Fairfax County has more than a million people and most of them are stuck in traffic.

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Truer words were never spoken Traffic alone means you couldn't pay me enough to live in NoVA. Nothing against it, otherwise.

We're fine. Abby is starting to take her first steps. She's becoming a handful.

Just wait till yours starts crawling around and "exploring" her environment.

I haven't decided which day either. At this point, I'm flexible.

Chris

I don't know where my head has been, just realized today was July 27 and the show is this weekend. I thought it was next weekend. I haven't been paying much attention to dates lately. I'll know later today, but I think Saturday I'm free.

I need to check which day my wife is off so she can watch the baby.

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Bah. Bring the baby. Strap on one of those "Baby Bjorn" carriers and let her pick out guns for you. When you get home with an armload, tell your wife your lovely daughter picked them all out for her personal collection.

My daughter has been to 5 or 6 shows already and she isn't a year old yet.

Chris