Controlled round feed

I think it's more an issue of combat and rough-service sporting scenarios. And of course, the economic/manufacturing thresholds.

Weapons cycled significant off-plane and off-axis.

I'll watch for information to the contrary on that but that's kind of my experience to the debate.

Todd.

MarshallDodge said:

Is it more of an issue with longer cartridges, like a 30-06, etc?

Click to expand...

I don’t think so.

Oh boy here we go...

There is no difference in reliability of FEEDING. Where a CRF has an advantage is a much more robust, foolproof extraction and ejection system. And in "normal" conditions even that difference is minimal. But if you hunt in nasty, wet, cold, snowy, muddy conditions where your rifle is exposed to the elements a CRF rifle is much less likely to fail to extract and eject.

In the real world this isn't very likely, but with a PF rifle the extractor doesn't grab the rim until the round is in the chamber and the bolt is closed. If for some reason, (an excited, or stressed) hunter tries to eject a round before fully closing the bolt it will leave the round half way in the chamber and you'll get a double feed. It has been known to happen when dangerous game charges. With CRF the extractor grabs the rim as soon as the round clears the magazine. If the excited hunter does this the first round will still eject and he next round will feed into the chamber.

I don't hunt dangerous game so the 2nd scenario isn't a concern. But I do often pack into back country and hunt in freezing rain, snow, and often in muddy conditions where disassembling and giving the rifle a thorough cleaning isn't gonna happen till I get home. I trust my CRF rifles a lot more under those conditions.

Years ago long expedition type hunts of weeks at time used to be more common and CRF was more important. For the guy who walks out the back door and hunts for a few hours from a stand or blind and returns home it probably isn't an advantage. I have both types and use both. But in rough conditions the PF rifles stay home.

mcb said:

Oh boy here we go...

Click to expand...

Saddle up boys!

Turn your Remington (or other push feed rifle) on its side with the ejection port angled towards the ground and try and feed from the magazine. There is a difference in feeding.

Now, one has a valid argument that in to as how often is one feeding a round from a magazine upside down, but there is a difference in feeding, to say otherwise is at best a half truth.

But in the end push feed rifles will get you killed!

<*(((>< said:

Saddle up boys!

Click to expand...

Oh no not this one. I am going to pop some popcorn and watch from the side lines. I have two giant foam #1 hands one says CRF and the other says PF.

They will both get you killed if the meat-ware malfuctions.

Just for @MarshallDodge's information Winchester's M70 action has had both CRF and PF throughout the years. So even they had it wrong at one instance in the M70's life , but they corrected themselves with the current Extreme Weather rifles (CRF, coned breech, Mauser extractor and 3-position safety). All of these items lead to a long and healthy life for it's user.

I break it down in my own life as I would consider PF for target and range guns, CRF for working guns, hunting and the like.

<*(((>< said:

Just for @MarshallDodge's information Winchester's M70 action has had both CRF and PF throughout the years.

Click to expand...

Yep. I've had both Model 70 versions over the years. They both worked swell, but now that I'm an old curmudgeon, I like my custom Montana Rifle Company CRF rifle most of all.

.308 Norma said:

Yep. I've had both Model 70 versions over the years. They both worked swell, but now that I'm an old curmudgeon, I like my custom Montana Rifle Company CRF rifle most of all.

Click to expand...

Has your experience with MRC has been overall good? I've heard both stories as one does on the internet. I was strongly considering one of their rifles for my 280AI but in the end decided on a Winchester EW rifle for a donor. I probably should have just given them a try.

<*(((>< said:

Your experience with MRC has been overall good?

Click to expand...

Yes sir, excellent experience. But I'm not so sure about MRC anymore. I suspect they've changed, and I too have heard bad stories about them on the internet.
For one thing, I don't think MRC even builds rifles like mine anymore. Mine is the "Summit" model. It's dull (bead blasted) stainless with a granite-grey synthetic stock, and it was built to my specification -- 308 Norma Magnum, 25" barrel (I don't remember the twist) and the length of pull I specified. I've told this before, but my custom 308 Norma Magnum was my retirement gift to myself 10 years ago, and I paid for it with my first two Social Security payments.
Anyway, if you don't already know, MRC's actions are basically "beefed up" pre-64 Model 70 actions. I love my own MRC rifle, and when I ordered it 10 years ago, MRC people were friendly, professional, easy to talk to, timely, and built the best rifle I've ever owned. I don't know what MRC is like nowadays.

.308 Norma said:

Yes sir, excellent experience. But I'm not so sure about MRC anymore. I suspect they've changed, and I too have heard bad stories about them on the internet.
For one thing, I don't think MRC even builds rifles like mine anymore. Mine is the "Summit" model. It's dull (bead blasted) stainless with a granite-grey synthetic stock, and it was built to my specification -- 308 Norma Magnum, 25" barrel (I don't remember the twist) and the length of pull I specified. I've told this before, but my custom 308 Norma Magnum was my retirement gift to myself 10 years ago, and I paid for it with my first two Social Security payments.
Anyway, if you don't already know, MRC's actions are basically "beefed up" pre-64 Model 70 actions. I love my own MRC rifle, and when I ordered it 10 years ago, MRC people were friendly, professional, easy to talk to, timely, and built the best rifle I've ever owned. I don't know what MRC is like nowadays.

Click to expand...

I'm a M70 action guy, so I'm aware of them, but just have heard mixed reviews. Sounds like a really nice rifle, I've heard you talk about it in other threads.

Short stroke and re-cycle on a CRF beside a PF rifle sometime, you’ll see the difference.

Outside of that very specific failure mode, it’s splitting hairs.

I prefer crf they just make a rifle feel complete to me. I still like many push feeds tho. I'd still take a crf if ever hunting DG. The human body does some odd things when the fight or flight kicks in, things one can't even train for. The crf I believe is better suited for that.

I like the CRF M70ish design well, because doggonnit, that is all I own. If I owned PF rifles, I would like them. Frankly, I would hate myself if I owned what I did not like and did not own what I liked - I would be twisted, bitter, angry and frustrated. PF is a splendid design - every man’s envy and every woman’s desire; I just do not own one.

A few years ago I read of an experiment where a PF rifle was cycled in every position imaginable and fed right every time. I prefer CRF for the cool factor but have almost all PF because of the cost factor.

I‘ve heard MRC is going out of business.

MarshallDodge said:

I can feel the difference between the two but never had issues with feeding unless it was some kind of mag related issue.

Click to expand...

A CRF is stupid simple to clear for a double feed - short stroke with recycle. The CRF will extract and eject the first round and go back to happily feed the second round. The push feeder will need the attention of fingers through the port, as it doesn’t have “control” of the first/top round.

taliv said:

I think most modern actions allow the extractor to snap over the rim

Click to expand...

Agreed, most do incorporate a beveled extractor nose to snap over... but it’s certainly not the same feel as a typical push feeder, and I often question what that extra “oomph” does for neck run out and shoulder “crush” in the feeding cycle. The Bighorn TL3’s itty bitty Savage-esque extractor is an exception, but the big Mauser style non-rotating claw type extractors take a bit of punch to snap over (Mausingfield, Ruger, Win, Defiance, etc). My mind can’t help but wonder what else that extra force does to my cartridges, pushing harder on one side of the rim, as the round is seating into the chamber. Heck, a lot of folks still think Win 70’s and Ruger 77’s can’t be port fed, since they take so much extra force to snap over. Until I corrected the bevel on my 300wm Hawkeye, my wife wasn’t able to close the bolt hard enough to snap over, and I had to crash the bolt hard enough that I was concerned with slipping the sear, let alone inducing runout in the cartridge - harder than any crush-fit shoulder I’ve ever loaded!

ETA: I’m a Ruger M77 MkII & Hawkeye “enthusiast,” and I somewhat organically fell into providing service for a lot of M77’s in the past. In other words, none of the full time smiths in our area would work on Rugers, especially for bedding work, so I became the common referral. Many owners I’ve served over the years didn’t even realize their rifle was capable of “snapping over,” but I’d correct the extractor bevel on almost all rifles I serviced. The common lore “CRF’s can’t port feed” is strong enough most guys don’t even try, and when the others do try, they feel that resistance and assume the legend is true.

Well...

When I was young and poor - My first real hunting rifle was a Remington M700 BDL chambered in JOC... and hunted it for several decades without complaint.

That said, my last three CF rifles have all been CRF.

No complaints there either.




GR

Varminterror said:

I often question what that extra “oomph” does for neck run out and shoulder “crush” in the feeding cycle. The Bighorn TL3’s itty bitty Savage-esque extractor is an exception, but the big Mauser style non-rotating claw type extractors take a bit of punch to snap over (Mausingfield, Ruger, Win, Defiance, etc). My mind can’t help but wonder what else that extra force does to my cartridges, pushing harder on one side of the rim, as the round is seating into the chamber.

Click to expand...

Here’s some anecdotal experience with the Mausingfield, which has never seen a single one of it’s 3,000+ .308 rounds fed from the magazine. Well, I may have cycled 5 just to see how it did, but that’s it

My daughter shoots it in 600 yard F/TR matches, all rounds top loaded and snap over the rim.



Now as far as detrimental to concentricity and accuracy are concerned, here’s one of her targets

@Nature Boy - just think of how small she could have shot with a push feeder instead!