Buying a gun: What is a legal residence address?

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weasleyhr

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I’m aware that one need not necessarily have a driver’s license in a given state in order to be a resident of that state for ATF purposes. I currently live in Arizona and don’t have an AZ DL; I came to AZ as a college student. This makes me an AZ resident as far as the ATF is concerned. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...residency-out-state-college-students/download

I also live full-time in an RV. In my area, RV parks are chock full of retired people and are prohibitively expensive, restricted to age 55+, and/or have no vacancies. For this reason, I seek out alternative places to stay.

The ATF also says I can use a hunting license as proof of residence address: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-form-identification-must-licensee-obtain-transferee-firearm. It also says “A description of the location of the residence on an identification document, such as a rural route, is sufficient to constitute a residence address provided the purchaser resides in a State or locality where it is considered to be a legal residence address.”

So my question is: can I park my rig on BLM land and go get a hunting/fishing license, giving my address as something like “5.2 miles east of Highway X on Y Road,” or “Something Road and Somewhere Street,” or a plus code, and will that be a legal residence address under AZ law that I can use when buying a gun?
 
Interesting, I know in ks I have to have a ssn proof and a proof of physical address such as a utility bill.
 
A quick check of the ATF website:

18 U.S.C. 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.124

A description of the location of the residence on an identification document, such as a rural route, is sufficient to constitute a residence address provided the purchaser resides in a State or locality where it is considered to be a legal residence address.
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If the State recognizes the hunting license or permit as government issued, then this license or permit would qualify as being government issued for the purposes of supplementing another government issued identification document

Federal rules prohibit people from living on BLM or other federally owned lands. Usually they have something like a 30 day maximum stay so claiming residence on their property is likely not lawful.

That said, a hunting license may be accepted as a supplemental document in conjunction with another valid government photo ID. When you claim new permanent residence in another state your previous drivers license may become invalidated after a short grace period and require a new license from AZ (depends on rules of state where it was issued).
 
deadin said:
Question... Without a DL, how do you legally move your RV while "seeking out alternative places to stay".
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He didn't say he doesn't have a license, just that he doesn't have an AZ license. He is from out of state, but is a full time student in AZ. At least that is the way I read it.
 
LNK said:
He didn't say he doesn't have a license, just that he doesn't have an AZ license. He is from out of state, but is a full time student in AZ. At least that is the way I read it.
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Right. As a student, I'm not legally required to get an AZ license.
 
illinoisburt said:
Federal rules prohibit people from living on BLM or other federally owned lands. Usually they have something like a 30 day maximum stay so claiming residence on their property is likely not lawful
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BLM has a 14 day maximum stay; after that you have to move outside of a 25-mile radius. So you could theoretically stay on BLM land indefinitely as long as you move every 2 weeks. To the best of my knowledge, there's no law anywhere that says I can't change my place of residence as often as I want. What I'm really interested in is whether Arizona state law allows a description of the location rather than a regular street number as a residence address.
 
call people there who sell guns and ask them, no need to tell them who you are - just explain your situation and ask them what would be needed, going to the source is always the shortest path IMHO
 
You seem to infer your no longer a college student. That your driving in the state of Arizona on an out of state license, have no legal abode other than an RV and want to purchase a gun. At some point Your going to have an issue with the state.
If you are still a student enrolled in a school or college surely they require a address for if nothing more communication.
 
In general, firearms purchases aside, get a permanent residence. Since someone was offended by this, otherwise never mind apparently:

Get a permanent residence. Even if you don't want to/can't live there, not having a legal home makes you a vagrant. It causes problems in lots of ways. Seen it a few times for e.g. truckers who just give up, live in their sleeper. LOTS of government and other (e.g. medical) forms require a legit residence and many cross check, will not like it if that keeps changing, or the location doesn't exist.

So, either find the smallest, cheapest place you can that is a physical location, and be able to fall back there, get packagages, etc. Pay the rent. Go by periodically. If okay with small towns as you clearly are, often there are very, very cheap apartments upstairs of a shop, or a room in a house, or so on. No amenities, I have even seen no hot water (in my suburb of a big city they just tore down some no-basement, no-hot-water buildings in the last couple years!) for example, so we mean 40s flop house cheap.

Ask a (trustworthy) friend or family member in state if you can get mail at their place, and crash there if needed, etc. We do this for a friend who has no real residence due to complex USAR/School committments, as well as a couple former foster kids.

And the last idea I have is not legal but likely to slip under the radar: get a PO box at a UPS Store type thing; they offer real street addresses to avoid the "we don't ship to PO boxes" thing many eStores have, and to make small businesses look real. Get your mail there, use it as your "address." Pay the bills for the box before anything else, and make sure it's a place you can get to at least weekly to check your mail, etc.

Whichever you do, make it "real." Get a local driver's license, for example. If you don't need one otherwise, get a credit card, have it mailed there, and buy 1-2 things a month off it (and pay it off!) to establish the address as a valid on your credit history, etc.
 
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weasleyhr said:
I’m aware that one need not necessarily have a driver’s license in a given state in order to be a resident of that state for ATF purposes. I currently live in Arizona and don’t have an AZ DL; I came to AZ as a college student. This makes me an AZ resident as far as the ATF is concerned. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...residency-out-state-college-students/download
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Here's a more recent Ruling on State of Residence: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download


I also live full-time in an RV. In my area, RV parks are chock full of retired people and are prohibitively expensive, restricted to age 55+, and/or have no vacancies. For this reason, I seek out alternative places to stay.
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Since your drivers license doesn't show your current residence address in AZ, you'll need to provide supplemental government issued documents showing your name and current residence address in AZ. An electric bill from "Bob's Bait and RV Park" won't cut it.

The ATF also says I can use a hunting license as proof of residence address: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-form-identification-must-licensee-obtain-transferee-firearm. It also says “A description of the location of the residence on an identification document, such as a rural route, is sufficient to constitute a residence address provided the purchaser resides in a State or locality where it is considered to be a legal residence address.”
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Correct.

So my question is: can I park my rig on BLM land and go get a hunting/fishing license, giving my address as something like “5.2 miles east of Highway X on Y Road,” or “Something Road and Somewhere Street,” or a plus code, and will that be a legal residence address under AZ law that I can use when buying a gun?
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"under AZ law"? Heck if I know, but it likely doesn't meet the requirements of a rural route address unless it actually has a rural route address. Not every dirt road is a rural route.
 
shoobe01 said:
Get a permanent residence. Even if you don't want to/can't live there, not having a legal home makes you a vagrant. It causes problems in lots of ways. Seen it a few times for e.g. truckers who just give up, live in their sleeper. LOTS of government and other (e.g. medical) forms require a legit residence and many cross check, will not like it if that keeps changing, or the location doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
A "permanent address" has nothing to do with anything. Federal law/ATF regs require your CURRENT residence address.

So, either find the smallest, cheapest place you can that is a physical location, and be able to fall back there, get packagages, etc. Pay the rent. Go by periodically. If okay with small towns as you clearly are, often there are very, very cheap apartments upstairs of a shop, or a room in a house, or so on. No amenities, I have even seen no hot water (in my suburb of a big city they just tore down some no-basement, no-hot-water buildings in the last couple years!) for example, so we mean 40s flop house cheap.
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Not actually living there? Then what you describe would make the OP commit a felony when he signs the Form 4473.

Ask a (trustworthy) friend or family member in state if you can get mail at their place, and crash there if needed, etc. We do this for a friend who has no real residence due to complex USAR/School committments, as well as a couple former foster kids.
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Such temporary stays do not satisfy Federal law or ATF regs. Again, felony.

And the last idea I have is not legal but likely to slip under the radar: get a PO box at a UPS Store type thing; they offer real street addresses to avoid the "we don't ship to PO boxes" thing many eStores have, and to make small businesses look real. Get your mail there, use it as your "address." Pay the bills for the box before anything else, and make sure it's a place you can get to at least weekly to check your mail, etc.
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Oh. Good. Grief.
Stop giving advice. Now you've gone from simply bad advice to actually promoting the idea of falsifying the buyers actual current RESIDENCE ADDRESS.
YOU NEED TO READ SOME REGS.

Whichever you do, make it "real." Get a local driver's license, for example. If you don't need one otherwise, get a credit card, have it mailed there, and buy 1-2 things a month off it (and pay it off!) to establish the address as a valid on your credit history, etc.
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Wow. A credit card and credit history have absolutely no bearing on anything related to legally acquiring a firearm.

Hopefully no one has ever taken your advice, 'cause it couldn't be more wrong than this.:rofl:
 
film495 said:
call people there who sell guns and ask them, no need to tell them who you are - just explain your situation and ask them what would be needed, going to the source is always the shortest path IMHO
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FFLs don't necessarily know much. More than once I've had to educate them about the whole concept of dual-state residence and showed them where it explains it all on the back of the 4437.

whughett said:
You seem to infer your no longer a college student. That your driving in the state of Arizona on an out of state license, have no legal abode other than an RV and want to purchase a gun. At some point Your going to have an issue with the state.
If you are still a student enrolled in a school or college surely they require a address for if nothing more communication.
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A PO Box (which I have) is sufficient for the college. Not sufficient for buying a gun though.

The difficult housing situation in my area notwithstanding, I (like many other people) simply don't want to live a typical settled life. I rarely stay in one place more than a few months, and while I'm a student I go out of state to work in the summer. Got this disease (LOL) called wanderlust. This may, depending on the state, put us wanderers technically in violation of traffic law, but oh well, and no one makes a big deal of it anyway. The police checked my license while I was doing seasonal work in WA and they never questioned me about it being out-of-state. But the point of this thread is gun law, not traffic law.
 
The bride and I are also dual state residents. Big difference however as we own property in both. In the non-resident State,RI, a utility or tax bill showing the domicile suffices.
 
dogtown tom said:
Here's a more recent Ruling on State of Residence: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-6-state-residence/download



Since your drivers license doesn't show your current residence address in AZ, you'll need to provide supplemental government issued documents showing your name and current residence address in AZ. An electric bill from "Bob's Bait and RV Park" won't cut it.


Correct.


"under AZ law"? Heck if I know, but it likely doesn't meet the requirements of a rural route address unless it actually has a rural route address. Not every dirt road is a rural route.
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Thanks for this information. I have a neighbor who is a snow bird, spends 6 months here and 6 in Michigan. He has been wanting to purchase a hand gun. He owns homes is both states.
 
whughett said:
The bride and I are also dual state residents. Big difference however as we own property in both.
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Owning property is not a requirement for the purposes of acquiring firearms and doesn't make you a resident either. Of all the federal laws and ATF regulations "State of Residency" is by far the most liberal interpretation........you simply have to live in that state with the intention of making it your home. Where you vote, pay taxes, where your drivers license is from is immaterial.


In the non-resident State,RI, a utility or tax bill showing the domicile suffices.
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For the purposes of acquiring firearms, it IS your "resident state" while you live there. Any utility bill does not suffice, it must be from a government entity and show the buyers name and the address in that state.
 
Well, under what I consider somewhat minimal circumstances; whether you like it or not, California will declare you a legal resident. Trust me.
 
Thibaut said:
Well, under what I consider somewhat minimal circumstances; whether you like it or not, California will declare you a legal resident. Trust me.
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What California says means jack squat to ATF. ATF regulations are what is required in every state, by every FFL. If California says folks passing through the airport are Cali residents.....well, ATF says nope. And that means no gun for those travelers. Again, what a state considers a residency requirements to vote, pay taxes, etc is wholly and completely irrelevant to residency for the purposes of acquiring firearms.

If California says its residents cannot acquire firearms while out of state (which they do)...........that doesn't violate ATF regs. State laws can be more restrictive than federal.
 
ericuda said:
Interesting, I know in ks I have to have a ssn proof and a proof of physical address such as a utility bill.
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In Kansas, it is actually pretty hard. I purchased a house here about a year ago, and have lived and worked here for over five years, and still don't have all the paperwork to change my driver's license over. I may end up going back to Utah this summer just to renew my driver's license.
 
DogTownTom Texas State laws, May differ from individual state law’s especially Rhode Island and Massachusetts, in Rhode Island residency is a requirement, not necessarily property ownership. To purchase a hand gun one needs a “blue card” issued by the state.

But thank you for setting me straight on the matter.
 
The way I see it, you are asking what kind of shoes to wear, to dance in a bonfire.

IME, once you attract the ATF's attention, they don't just let it go. Regardless of parsed regulation, which SEEMS to rule in your favor, I
would find a nice, boring address, like "512 Walnut St. Normalville, MT, 38909", because one thing you may not have considered is that while
any judge will tell you "ignorance of the law is no excuse", they will also tell you (after a lengthy, expensive court procedure, in which, hopefully, you are exonerated)
"you can't expect Law Enforcement personnel to know every law".

Not to mention the holdup, in attempting to actually purchase firearms, with a wonky address. Running all this by a FFL may or may not be an
exercise in futility, if not downright frustration, because they have the right to refuse a transaction, for any reason, if it doesn't "feel" right.
 
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weasleyhr said:
Right. As a student, I'm not legally required to get an AZ license.
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That doesn’t disqualify your “home state” from invalidating your drivers license after X days from the time you establish residency in another state.

For example, my Kentucky concealed carry permit became invalid 30 days after I established residency in Tennessee. There is little way for them to know that, especially since the houses that I owned were not sold prior to me leaving the state, but before going and doing something such as purchasing a gun under abnormal but legal protocol I would want to verify that everything I had was legal. Look up the rules on licensure in your home state and verify that there is not a clause which would make your current drivers license invalid .
 
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