1895 winchester musket in 30 U.S.

I've never heard of a Winchester musket. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but the 30-40 is a metallic cartridge.

The use of the term "musket" in that article, for whatever reason, is ridiculous. That type of firearm would be muzzle-loaded and definitely NOT a .30-40 Krag.

I've always heard the full length military model called a "Musket". Nothing new..Read up on them.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/3/20/winchester-model-1895-russian-musket/

"Musket" was an accepted term for 19th century lever action rifles in military configuration. I think Winchester made every model from 1866 - 1895 as a musket. Also Marlin and Savage lever action muskets.

Interesting.

Too much Muscatel and they'll call anything a musket...

Conelrad

1965tinman said:

I recently picked up a 95 Winchester musket in 30-40 krag. Someone in the past sporterized it, cutting down the forend, removing the ladder sight and installing a peep sight on the receiver.

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If you get it all together, I am going to recommend that you do not attempt to hot load the Krag cartridge in this rifle. You rifle was probably made for the Spanish American war, and even if it was made during WW1, that does not make the metallurgy any better. I get into arguments all the time with posters who think the Kaiser had a cell phone.

The inprint guys claim that the 1895 was discontinued because of shooters firing 8mm Mauser rounds in the rifle, and that may have happened. But that also may have been a convenient corporate excuse to shift blame someone else for problems resulting from a rifle that was fundamentally not that strong, one that was marginal in strength with the materials and processes of the era. I claim this as supporting material.

The 95 Winchester and Modern 30-06 Ammunition

American Rifleman, June 1932

Because I am a bun on guns and ammunition, and velocities and energy, etc, I am writing to know if what I have will be of any interest to you.

I have in my possession an 1895 Winchester bored for the .30-06 Government ammunition. This gun is comparatively new, having had between 300 and 500 rounds shot in it. Last year the owner attempted to shoot a coyote and the gun blew up. The plates by which the frame is bolted to the stock were sheared off clean. The frame was bulged outward. Almost the entire back end of the shell was blown out. Fortunately the bolt did not entirely give way and remained fastened.

The victim was Jno. J. Shults, a California state vermin trapper. His only injury was a powder burn of his left eye. (he shotos left handed) He was 54 years old, and a seasoned trapper.-G.R.F.

Answer I am not at all surprised at the accident that occurred to Mr. Shults with the .30-06 Winchester Model 95 rifle. It is about what would be expected sooner or later to one using one of these rifles today and not completely understanding its weakness.

The Winchester Model 95 rifle was adopted to use the .30-06 cartridge at a time when the only cartridges of this size on the market were those loaded with 150-grain bullet and giving a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second, and those loaded with a 220-grain bullet and giving m.v. 2,200 fps. These cartridges did not give breech pressures in excess of 46,000 to 48,000 pounds per square inch . A Winchester Model 95 rifle is safe with such cartridges.

Following the World War, all of our cartridge companies placed very much heavier loaded .30-06 cartrides on the market in response to the popular demand, these cartridges being intended only for use in Springfield, Winchester, and Remington bolt-action rifle which have receiver and bolt constructed of properly heat-treated alloy steel, and have two large locking lugs at the head of the bolt. These cartridges have bullets and velocities as follows:



110 grain bullet M.V 3,500 fps

150 grian bullet M.V. 3,000 fps

180 grain bullet M.V. 2,700 fps

220 grain bullet M.V. 2,450 fps.

The breech pressures run from 52,000 to 56,000 pounds at a normal temperature of 70 degrees; but when the cartridge has been exposed for a short time to a temperature of say 100 degrees on a hot summer day, these pressures may rise 10,000 pounds or so. Despite these high pressures, these cartridges are entirely safe in normal Springfield, Winchester, and Remington bolt-action rifles which have been made since the World War. No doubt Mr. Shults used one of these cartridges, for scarcely any of the older ammunition is now seen.

In print writers of the era, just as the one's today, are shills for the industry, and always, and I mean always, providing excuses for industry. So this guy had no idea other than cartridge velocities and has no idea of the fundamental idea of the design margins of the action, nor the materials. I think it is reasonable to assume that the M1895 was designed and built for a 30-40 Krag cartridge and when Winchester chambered the thing for the later, more powerful cartridges, they just passed the risk of structural failure off to the consumer. The fact that a well connected author is making comments about low powered 30-06 and high powered 30-06, tells me the rifle never had the design margins to shoot that "high powered" 30-06. Anyway, with a rifle that old, and made from the materials of the day, I am recommending keeping your Krag loads within period pressures and velocities.

Slamfire said:

150 grian bullet M.V. 3,000 fps
The breech pressures run from 52,000 to 56,000 pounds

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I wonder where he got those pressures. Phil Sharpe's contacts at Hercules were showing a 150 over 3000 fps for 51000 pounds (CUP).
I agree that is still excessive for a '95. Standard Krag is plenty, and was considered a good killer.

Jim Watson said:

I wonder where he got those pressures. Phil Sharpe's contacts at Hercules were showing a 150 over 3000 fps for 51000 pounds (CUP).
I agree that is still excessive for a '95. Standard Krag is plenty, and was considered a good killer.

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Who knows, before cheap, affordable chronographs, published velocities were optimistic. And we don't have cheap, affordable, pressure barrels, and I suspect most hot reloads are approaching 80,000 psia, and the loaders think their loads are safe.

But the bottom line is, it is not worth getting hurt pushing an antique made out of plain carbon steels, which due to the process controls of the period, undoubtedly have a lot of slag and impurities.

O/P's question was related to the Winchester 1895 in .30 Government aka .30-40

Musket length or musket referred to barrel lengths similar to the older military issue black powder rifles. If you look up the first generation smokeless powder rifles, you will find a very close match to the last generation of black powder rifles. All have barrel lengths from about 29-31 inches or so. Weapons designers simply used the same approximate barrel lengths for the new smokeless powder generation of rifles as they did for black powder rifles.

To get the maximum range for blackpowder firearms of the day, long barrels were necessary. The Springfield Trapdoor in 45/70 for example was 32 inches more or less depending on model, while the newer Krag was 30 inches. You see the same pairing in Mausers, the older 71 and 71/84 had barrels of about 33 inches or so, smokeless Mausers 29.1 as did the GEW 88. And Lee-Metford, Lee-Enfield No. 1 rifles had similar barrel lengths. You find a similar issue regarding length on the older true "muskets" without rifling that the barrels were long to deal with maximizing the use of black powder for long range.

Carbines were designed for special purposes and had shorter barrels accordingly than military infantry issue.

Eventually, the British (Lee Enfield No1, Mk 3) and Americans (1903 Springfield) realized that in their newest generation of smokeless rifles after 1900, that issuing only one intermediate length was a better compromise which was picked up gradually by other countries (the 98 Az series, the K11 Schmidt Rubin, the 1916 Spanish Mauser, and so on). By WWII, most countries had adapted to shorter barrels for their issued rifles either by rebarrelling/shortening existing barrels them, (Belgians, Austrians, Finns, Hungarians, and Spanish), moving to new models (German 98k , Swedes m. 38, Czech VZ 24, Yugo 24/47, French MAS 36, newer Brazilian and Colombian Mausers made by FN, etc. ).

Of the major powers in WWII, only the Japanese with their T38, the Italians with their 91 Fusils, and the Russians with their Mosin 91's and 91/30's, went into WWII with long barreled rifles as general issue and both had the older paradigm of separate carbines. But, the Japanese did move belatedly to the T99 which had the intermediate barrel length during WWII.

A link to a brief "Forgotten Weapons" video on the first variant Winchester 1895 Musket.

1965tinman: Is your musket a first variant "flatside" ?

1965tinman said:

mine is not a flatside….I have three other krags, a couple 98s and a wincchster 95 commercial model. My intention is to load a load that I would use in the 98s and use that in everything.

I have a trapdoor, a 86 and a handy rifle all in 45/70 and the trapdoor defines the reloads. It is a bit of a pain and I have to be careful if a hotter load is made up.

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Would love to see some pictures if you care to share them. If not, oh well, but a lot of those old rifles are spectacular in their craftsmanship.

You have a very interesting collection of late frontier designs and they all look in very good condition. I really like the separate picture of the trapdoor. I have a cut one missing parts that I am restoring to wall hanger status as I get the parts because I collect old military rifles and am slowly going back in time, after I finish the 1888 Trapdoor, the next stop is the .50/70 and then the Springfield 1861 or 1863 musket. All of those are frankly going to be wallhangers unless I end up buying a replica 1861 or 63 rifle.

The 1886 is a classic lever action and yours look beautiful and well maintained. Nice looking 1895 with the others as well.

Just curious, how bad is your recoil with a 50/110 compared with a 45/70?

1965tinman said:

it's not much more.

here is a photo comparison
View attachment 896143

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Looks pretty impressive to me.

Op - very jealous! What a great rifle. I have a modern (1980s) Miroku made “Browning” 1895 in 30-40. Love that rifle. But to have an original in musket configuration? Very, very cool. Any SAAMI spec loaded ammunition or published load data for the 30-40 will be fine in an original 1895 which is a stronger action than the Krag-Joergensen.

With regards to your quest for a forearm, I suggest contacting the Cody Firearms Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West.

https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/

While it is extremely unlikely that the museum will have one for sale, they are THE Winchester experts and must undertake restorations for their collection, so I suspect one of the boffins there will know if one is to be had anywhere.

Wishing you the best of luck and, if you get it back together, please post up a pic!

As an aside, over 90% of the Russian contract 1895s in 7.62x54R, the vast and overwhelming majority of all 1895s produced, were delivered in musket format. I believe a much, much smaller number were also produced in musket format for the Canadian NWMP or the Rockies in 303 British.

You might contact Show Me in Missouri. They cut forends from your wood. They may have a 95 pattern for an for-end piece. Note, it might not be cheap, but a piece of straight grain American Black Walnut should fix you up if they happen to have the pattern.