why guns?

BTW Old Dog I have been in police states also. So what. That somehow gives you knowledge that others don’t have? How do you think those police states became police states, I’ll tell you, they became that way because the citizens and the politicians in those countries continually gave up their freedoms just like we are doing in our country. It makes me sick to see that happening here.

Well, since this thread is clearly headed towards a group hug in recognition of our overarching similarities, let me just say that I still think the article was all over the place and I do not want to read it again to see if I am right.

All philosophical rambling aside, the common drift is likely a belief in the adage "gun control equals people control."

^^ What WAS the article about..?

Regarding trusting law enforcement; I've known maybe 4 or 5 law enforcement officers outside of their work environment. Out of the them, all but one were genuinely good folks as far as I could tell. The other one was perhaps the biggest A-Hole I've ever met and I am still truly amazed and disgusted that he was allowed to work until retirement.
Also, I had something happen to me personally that bothers me a lot. My adolescent son was going through some emotionally trying times. I had taken a day off to take him to an appointment with a mental health professional. He had been talking to his girlfriend, who had told her sister about it. Girlfriend's sister decided to call law enforcement and tell them that he was considering hurting himself. I got a knock on the door at around 10:00 AM. It was 5 members of the Sharif's department. I opened the door and they physically pushed me out of the way while entering my house without a word as to why they were there. They found my son in the shower, dragged him out of the shower and cuffed him, naked and dripping wet.
I explained that I was his father, I had stayed home to take care of MY SON and he had an appointment with a doctor in a couple of hours. After a lot of talking, I got them to leave. This incident was about 18 years ago but I'm still angry that myself and my son were treated this way and that those officers entered my house without being invited in or a search warrant.
I generally respect police officers, I know that most are good folks doing a difficult job. I also realize that some of them have a huge chip on their shoulders and some are down right crooks with a badge.
2 weeks after the incident I installed a storm door with a deadbolt on it. It's great for when people that I don't know come to my door but the real reason I installed it is to keep police officers without a warrant from barging into my house.

Kayaker 1960 said:

They found my son in the shower, dragged him out of the shower and cuffed him, naked and dripping wet.

Click to expand...

Maybe they felt obligated to protect him from harm. I imagine that, following the SCROTUS ruling mentioned previously, events like this will not happen again.

I am sorry that so many of you are afraid of the police and don't trust them. I'll just bet they catch the scent of that fear and mistrust the very moment they get within breathing distance. Sort of like an alarm pheromone. What I find somewhat odd is that so many of you also have as friends or know well enough, a few police and they are mostly good guys. The rest of them are cross your heart bad people determined to leave a chaos-filled wake as they strut through life wearing that gun and power-badge just looking for trouble. And you; apparently.

This brings to mind my two uncles. Salvatore and Francois. Suffice to say that one of them is a peace-loving mensch. The other one took on a real mean streak somewhere along the way.

I am tongue-tied at the confide.

Afraid? No. Respect and trust are earned. For my part, respect is readily given to law enforcement. I have not endured an experience like Kayaker 1980, but I know that when a man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are the stakes, trust is given only to a few.

That's an excellent article, reminding me of an explanation along similar lines which I gave someone years ago.

Essentially, it wasn't until firearms came along that the common man was actually elevated to the same level as those in power with respect to being able to credibly wield effective force against those stronger than themselves.

Why?

Because among personal weapons and tactics, firearms are unique in being able to offer even the smallest and weakest of the common man such power.

Knives, swords, bows, and sundry other weapons all yield disproportionately more advantage to the stronger, and more trained, than the weaker. Get within striking distance of someone with edged weapons and the advantage goes to the stronger. A stronger man can wield a more powerful bow with greater range and penetrating power.

The firearm allows the common man to effectively engage at much safer distances while projecting the same amount of deadly force as those who are stronger.

They are, indeed, the great equalizer.

GunnyUSMC said:

Today’s street cops don’t have just a city block or two that they have to work, it’s more like a few square miles.
The city I work in has a population of 228,286. We have right at 650 officers on the department. Our Uniform Patrol division has already worked over 20,000 calls this year.
Do you think with those numbers we could walk the streets like years ago?
The city I live in has a population of just over 10,000 and a police force of just under 30 officers.

Click to expand...

My dad was a white cop in Brooklyn; his precinct during the 50s, 60s, 70, and 80s covered a large area of low-income areas that were mostly black; yet he made sure to learn EVERY store owner, every kid hanging on the corner because that way he earned the respect during a time of severe racial issues. You don't do that sitting in a patrol car eating doughnuts, you do it by getting out, walking that beat and talking to everyone. He was able to head off a lot of "domestic disturbances" ( a cops worst nightmare) by learning what was happening early enough

George P said:

My dad was a white cop in Brooklyn; his precinct during the 50s, 60s, 70, and 80s covered a large area of low-income areas that were mostly black; yet he made sure to learn EVERY store owner, every kid hanging on the corner because that way he earned the respect during a time of severe racial issues. You don't do that sitting in a patrol car eating doughnuts, you do it by getting out, walking that beat and talking to everyone. He was able to head off a lot of "domestic disturbances" ( a cops worst nightmare) by learning what was happening early enough

Click to expand...

You do know that you are preaching to the quire. I used to work a predominant black area of the city, First District. It had the highest crime rate in the city 20 years ago and still does today. I knew many of the store owners and many of the people in the neighborhoods. I also knew the kids and the thugs. I had a reputation for being hard but fair. Whenever I worked holidays, I always got invitations to have diner from the people in the neighborhoods I worked.
I’m not out on the streets any more, and I do miss those days.

I just read the article. What the hell was that? First draft stream-of-addled-consciousness meets google search? This is what happens when outsiders wander into an unfamiliar area of knowledge. At least he didn’t use the usual tropes of gun culture. But these musings do not equal a well thought out world view that would integrate a disciplined, responsible gun lifestyle with modern urban liberalism. Lacks philosophy and experience.

"Maybe they felt obligated to protect him from harm"
When they entered my house, they clearly knew that I wasn't him. They had to know that I was his father, wouldn't you think that they might want to take a moment to talk to me before barging into my home?

"I am sorry that so many of you are afraid of the police"
I'm not afraid of the police, but I don't trust them completely.

I also had another incident about 10 years ago with my local P.D. My Wife's bicycle was stolen, we reported it to the police. About a month later, I got a call from a police officer, telling me that he thinks he has found my bike. I went to the police station and while we are walking out back, the officer tells me that he found a homeless man riding too nice of a bike and he took it from him. Turns out to be the same brand and size but newer and a different color. I told him that it wasn't my bike. He told me that he wouldn't care it I told him it was mine. I was quite taken aback. That bike belonged to someone else and if I were to take it, I might as well have stolen it myself, but somehow with the blessing of at least one police officer.

I live in a nice town in the San Francisco bay area. Our police do an exemplary job of keeping rif-raf out and catching the bad guys when they commit a crime, IMO better than some P.D's in the surrounding area. I have a lot of respect for them, but still not total trust.

Last paragraphs (Without a gun, there is nothing you can do to protect yourself and your loved ones from being raped, tortured, mutilated, robbed, imprisoned, and executed at the whims of others. A gun forces your enemy to take you seriously),
it resume all, and history of the world proof that repeatedly over and over. If you don't want to accept that is because you don't take responsibility of yourself or loves one.
Always will be someone whining for help or asking for someone to decide for them, when they are "the majority", suddenly they became the oppressed.

i agree because EVERY adult in the entire nation has broken laws. most of us (highly moral and ethical people) break them every day. it's impossible not to

Click to expand...

I am always wary of statements that refer to “every”. Can you document that “every” comment? Probably not unless you have met “everyone” in the entire nation.

Pete D. said:

I am always wary of statements that refer to “every”. Can you document that “every” comment? Probably not unless you have met “everyone” in the entire nation.

Click to expand...

A more fair way of asking your question is "Can you QUALIFY that "every" comment?"

And the answer to that is "yes".

Jaywalking is against the law. Name a person who has NOT broken this law.

Driving a car with a burned out headlight, tail light, brake light, or running lights is illegal. Name a person who drives who has NOT broken this law.

Now, facing the fact that there are MILLIONS of laws in this country, it's a statistical certainty that EVERYBODY is going to violate SOME of these laws SOME of the time. Such laws run the full spectrum from capital crimes like murder all the way down to trivial laws like spitting on the sidewalk.

So again...ever eat anything before you bought it? Played gambling games for money in the privacy of your own home in a state where this is illegal? Engaged in any sexual activity other than penile/vaginal intercourse? Downloaded music, movies, TV shows, games which you did not pay for? Had in your possession permanent markers/spray paint in a jurisdiction with certain anti-graffiti laws? Illegally disposed of certain materials in the trash or environment in some areas, like batteries, oils, cleaning agents, old cell phones, or other toxic materials? Ever gone over the posted maximum speed limit? How about under the minimum posted speed limit? Or the old "rolling stop" maneuver? How about as a firearms owner and carried a firearm where it was prohibited? Driven through a state like Maryland or a place like DC with your weapon/ammunition not in strict compliance with the federal and local jurisdicational laws? Ever put your hands on someone to move them out of your way (assault)? Wolf-whistle a pretty lady in passing (sexual harassment)?

Obviously these are rhetorical questions and I really don't want to know the answers to them. Indeed, in some cases I wouldn't WANT you to answer them.

But the point is that even though most of us here are, in fact, pretty wary of over-generalized statements, SOMETIMES a generalization IS pretty accurate.

The one about "EVERY adult in the entire nation has broken laws" is one of those.

Pete D. said:

I am always wary of statements that refer to “every”. Can you document that “every” comment? Probably not unless you have met “everyone” in the entire nation.

Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/2009/10/19/were-all-felons-now/?amp

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842

MedWheeler said:

^^ What WAS the article about..?

Click to expand...

Hey, MedWheeler. I think (Lord knows I am wrong so much of the time) that the author was kind of, maybe, perhaps using a bit from Aristotle, "Tyranny derives from the oligarchy’s mistrust of the people; hence they deprive them of arms, ill-treat the lower class, and keep them from residing in the capital. These are common to oligarchy and tyranny." He seemed to more or less lump middle and lower and of course with the advent of the web, capitals; as it were, no longer really exist as they did. I think he might have had a direction, initially, but got muddled-up in the import.

Old Dog said:

I've spent a bit of time in "police states." If you are equating this country to a police state, you lack a frame of reference.

Click to expand...

I agree, Old Dog. We are blessed to live in a wonderful country. There is little doubt that times are changing but much blame for the negative in that change should be placed on our very selves. We left the barn door open and the horses bolted.

taliv said:

I am saying all citizens should default to a position of not trusting police until they know otherwise

Click to expand...

Word games.
So if one resides in a larger community where one does not know any of the members of one's local police department or sheriff's office, one doesn't know who to call ... And how exactly does one get to the point of "knowing otherwise?"

For starters, knock off the patronizing attitude. Doesn't befit a moderator, for certain.
You stated:

taliv said:

I am saying all citizens should default to a position of not trusting police until they know otherwise.

Click to expand...

Which certainly appears on the surface to mean, don't trust the police …
I asked the question: when and how will citizens know otherwise?
I get that you cannot figure out how to walk back statements you've already made, but there's no need to insult the intelligence of other forum members.