New Uberti 1866 Yellowboy Sporting Rifle

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Yesterday I picked up from my local FFL an Uberti 1866 Sporting Rifle that I ordered last week from Dixie Gun Works. I got it in .38-40 WCF to be a little different. I'm already setup for that caliber from when I had a Winchester 1892 in it.

1866-right-vertical.jpg

1866-left.jpg

Today, the mailman dropped off the bullet mold I ordered from Accurate Molds on March 1st. Eleven days from the time I ordered to delivery is not bad at all for a custom, made-to-order mold. The model is the 40-180E. It is specced to drop at around 180 grains from wheel weights, and a bit heavier from the 1:20 alloy I use. It's designed for use with black powder and looks like a scaled down version of the 43-215C I use for BP loads in .44-40 for use in my 1860 Henry and 1873 Sporting Rifle.

AM40-180E-1.jpg

I'm planning to take the '66 to the range tomorrow to put some Black Hills cowboy action shooting loads through it. I hope to break in the mold this weekend.
 
Wow! That is ONE HECKUVA NICE RIFLE!!!!! I hope it serves you well.

Last week I bought a Miroku 1866 in .38 SPL. that looks very much like yours! The only difference is the forend cap is slightly different.

Uberti makes great rifles too --- I have three of them.
 
@ApacheCoTodd "Sporting Rifle" is what Uberti calls their 24.25" barreled 1866s and 1873s.

@whughett Modern .38 WCF brass will only take about 33 to 35 grains of BP without heavy compression AIUI. Similarly, when I load 2.2cc (~35 grains of 3Fg) in Starline .44 WCF brass it's slightly compressed. In .44 WCF I get over 1300 FPS with 2.2cc of Swiss 3Fg and a 219 grain bullet from the Accurate 43-215C. I'm expecting around 1200 FPS from a full load of 3Fg and the Accurate 40-180E in .38 WCF.

I'll also be loading up some mild smokeless ammo with Unique for when I don't feel like cleaning the rifle the same day I shoot it. I have an 8 lb. keg of it along with a bunch of 180 grain cast bullets from Desperado Cowboy Bullets for that.
 
Yesterday I picked up from my local FFL an Uberti 1866 Sporting Rifle that I ordered last week from Dixie Gun Works. I got it in .38-40 WCF to be a little different. I'm already setup for that caliber from when I had a Winchester 1892 in it.

View attachment 898678

View attachment 898677

Today, the mailman dropped off the bullet mold I ordered from Accurate Molds on March 1st. Eleven days from the time I ordered to delivery is not bad at all for a custom, made-to-order mold. The model is the 40-180E. It is specced to drop at around 180 grains from wheel weights, and a bit heavier from the 1:20 alloy I use. It's designed for use with black powder and looks like a scaled down version of the 43-215C I use for BP loads in .44-40 for use in my 1860 Henry and 1873 Sporting Rifle.

View attachment 898679

I'm planning to take the '66 to the range tomorrow to put some Black Hills cowboy action shooting loads through it. I hope to break in the mold this weekend.
Nice rifle have fun with it and safe shooting!
 
@ApacheCoTodd "Sporting Rifle" is what Uberti calls their 24.25" barreled 1866s and 1873s.

@whughett Modern .38 WCF brass will only take about 33 to 35 grains of BP without heavy compression AIUI. Similarly, when I load 2.2cc (~35 grains of 3Fg) in Starline .44 WCF brass it's slightly compressed. In .44 WCF I get over 1300 FPS with 2.2cc of Swiss 3Fg and a 219 grain bullet from the Accurate 43-215C. I'm expecting around 1200 FPS from a full load of 3Fg and the Accurate 40-180E in .38 WCF.

I'll also be loading up some mild smokeless ammo with Unique for when I don't feel like cleaning the rifle the same day I shoot it. I have an 8 lb. keg of it along with a bunch of 180 grain cast bullets from Desperado Cowboy Bullets for that.
Got it.

That extra length, aside from performance, makes it a visually stunning rifle. Real fire-place gun for sure.

Todd.
 
@ApacheCoTodd "Sporting Rifle" is what Uberti calls their 24.25" barreled 1866s and 1873s.

@whughett Modern .38 WCF brass will only take about 33 to 35 grains of BP without heavy compression AIUI. Similarly, when I load 2.2cc (~35 grains of 3Fg) in Starline .44 WCF brass it's slightly compressed. In .44 WCF I get over 1300 FPS with 2.2cc of Swiss 3Fg and a 219 grain bullet from the Accurate 43-215C. I'm expecting around 1200 FPS from a full load of 3Fg and the Accurate 40-180E in .38 WCF.

I'll also be loading up some mild smokeless ammo with Unique for when I don't feel like cleaning the rifle the same day I shoot it. I have an 8 lb. keg of it along with a bunch of 180 grain cast bullets from Desperado Cowboy Bullets for that.

with no intent of high jacking this thread, your comments lead me to ask. Can one over compress a 3F black powder charge? To get 40 grains of 3F in the star line 45C case it’s brimful. I then seat a 250 grain RNFP on it. It seats to the crimp groove. Nice flame plume, boom and recoil. As accurate as this shooter is. No signs of pressure. They are seated using a Lee or Lyman press.
 
with no intent of high jacking this thread, your comments lead me to ask. Can one over compress a 3F black powder charge? To get 40 grains of 3F in the star line 45C case it’s brimful. I then seat a 250 grain RNFP on it. It seats to the crimp groove. Nice flame plume, boom and recoil. As accurate as this shooter is. No signs of pressure. They are seated using a Lee or Lyman press.

I'm sure it's possible to over compress BP, but I doubt it's possible in a case of this size, or without tools that your average handloader is unlikely to have.

For example, the original .303 British load was basically a compressed pellet of black powder loaded into the unformed case, then the case was necked down and the bullet seated. (There may have been a cardboard wad inserted before the bullet but I don't recall. I know a wad was used in the later Mk.VII loads with Cordite, based on some duds I dissassembled.)
 
Great looking rifle! Congratulations! I've been lusting after a 1866 in 44-40 or 45 colt for some time. I already have a 1873, 1892 and a 1885 pump, so this is the next logical step.

At least that's what I tell the wife!
 
I got the chance to shoot it this afternoon. Function was 100% with cowboy action shooting loads from Black Hills and Ultramax. As expected, accuracy with them was pretty poor, based on my prior experience with factory CAS .44 WCF ammo in my Henry and 1873.

Function was very rough using some black powder handloads I put together using an original 19th Century Ideal tong tool, with bullets cast in that tool's integrated mold. Cartridge OAL wasn't correct on all of those so several times the action bound up, requiring excessive force to function. If I don't pull the remainder of them I'll load them singly. Accuracy flat out sucked with those rounds.

I'm planning to break in the Accurate 40-180E mold this weekend. I expect the rifle to shoot well with that bullet.
 
with no intent of high jacking this thread, your comments lead me to ask. Can one over compress a 3F black powder charge? To get 40 grains of 3F in the star line 45C case it’s brimful. I then seat a 250 grain RNFP on it. It seats to the crimp groove. Nice flame plume, boom and recoil. As accurate as this shooter is. No signs of pressure. They are seated using a Lee or Lyman press.

And thereby hangs a tale.

Howdy

Frankly, I never try to stuff 40 grains of Black Powder into a 45 Colt. If you go way back you will see that the only 45 Colt cartridge that could actually hold 40 grains of BP were the old copper cased, folded rim, Benet primed cases. They had more case capacity than any other 45 Colt cartridges. In this photo, left and middle are an early copper cased Benet primed 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridge. If you look at the cutaway you can see how these cartridges worked. The priming compound was placed on the inside bottom of the case. Then an Anvil Plate was placed on top of the priming compound and crimped in place. The crimps at the base of the cartridges are what is holding the Anvil Plate in position. When a firing pin struck the center of the case, the priming compound was crushed between the back of the case and the Anvil Plate. The flame from the priming compound would then pass through the two holes and ignite the main powder charge. Even though there was no visible primer in the cartridge head, and they looked like rimfire cases, they were a very early version of centerfire cases. I have a box of 45 Colt Benet primed cartridges from the Frankford Arsenal that were made in 1874. Those large capacity copper cases were historically the only 45 Colt cartridges that could actually hold 40 grains of Black Powder.

pnIRvdUMj.jpg




Benet primed cases were not manufactured for very long, they were eventually replaced by Balloon Head cases. On the left in this photo is a piece of old Remington-UMC Balloon Head 45 Colt. On the right is a modern Solid Head case. Yes, I cut them in half myself. You can see how much more powder capacity there was in the old Balloon Head cases. Powder charges of about 38 grains were most common in the old Balloon Head 45 Colt cartridges. With modern Solid Head cases, my standard Black Powder load is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg. That works out to about 33.3 grains. I compress this charge about 1/16" - 1/8" when I seat a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. That is plenty of oomph for me, I don't see the need to try to cram any more powder in than that.

pnkIGffOj.jpg




Anyway, back to the original question about 'over compressing' a charge of Black Powder. Technically, no, if you can stuff a bullet on top of it, you are probably not going to have a problem, even if you cram a huge amount of powder into the case.

But other things can happen.

A few years ago I bought an original Winchester Model 1873 chambered for 38-40. This one left the factory in 1887. I had never loaded 38-40 yet, so I bought some dies and ordered some cases from Starline and some 180 grain Big Lube 38-40 bullets from Whyte Leatherworks. I buy all my Big Lube bullets from him. While waiting for my bullets to show up I found some suitable 38-40 bullets at a local shop.

pnSDl9KQj.jpg




Technically speaking the 38-40 cartridge case is the same as the 44-40 case, it has just been necked down further. But from the the neck back they are the same.

On the left is one of my 38-40 reloads, on the right is one of my 44-40 reloads. Both use the Big Lube style bullets, I use a 180 grain bullet in 38-40 and a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullet in 44-40. I use Starline brass for both. If you look carefully you can see how similar the two rounds are. In fact, 38-40 brass can be made from 44-40 brass, you just have to neck it down a bit further.

plU8LmdCj.jpg



My standard load for 44-40 is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg under the 200 grain bullet. The same 2.2CC (or about 33.3 grains) that I put into my 45 Colt loads. Again, seating the bullet on that amount of powder compresses it about 1/18" -1/8".

So thinking that the powder capacity for 38-40 should be the same as 44-40, I loaded a box of ammo with that charge, and the bullets I found at the local shop. I took rifle to the range to try it out with these loads and everything worked fine. Then my Big Lube bullets showed up and I loaded up a box or two of 38-40 for an upcoming match.

When I got to the firing line at the match, and worked the lever of the rifle the first time, it jammed. I could not close the lever all the way, the round would not enter the chamber. Seeing as the rifle was over 130 years old, I was not going to force things, I grounded the rifle and finished the match with one of my trusty 44-40 rifles.

When I got home I took a good look at that ammo. As it turns out, seating the very soft, pure lead Big Lube bullets on that powder charge was the problem. The resistance to compressing the powder had caused the soft bullets to deform as they were seated. They had gotten squashed down slightly in length, and expanded slightly in diameter. It was subtle, and I had not noticed it at the time. But expansion of the bullet diameters was enough that the rounds would not chamber. Looking closely at the 2.2CC of powder in the 38-40 case, and comparing it to the same amount in a 44-40 case, it was obvious that the charge in the 38-40 was sitting much higher than the charge in the 44-40 cases. High enough that with the soft lead bullets it cause the bullets to deform as they compressed that much powder.

Lesson learned, now I load my 38-40 cases with 1.9CC of Schuetzen (about 28.5 grains) Yes, it is much less than 40 grains. But experience has taught me with modern solid head brass, and dead soft lead bullets, that is the ideal amount of powder to put in my 38-40 loads.

To the OP:

Your bullet molds look really good. Here is a photo of the 200 Grain Big Lube Mav-Dutchaman bullet, both with and without bullet lube, next to a 44 Russian and 44-40 reload of mine. The lube groove on your 38-40 mold is not quite as deep as a Big Lube mold, but it should do a pretty good job with Black Powder. Be sure you lube your bullets with SPG or some other Black Powder compatible bullet lube and they will probably perform great.

pnkKAT1Ij.jpg
 
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As always, Driftwood Johnson lays down the knowledge. Thank you!

Re lube: I intend to use the same lube on my .38-40 bullets as I do with bullets I load in BP .44 WCF. It's a roughly 50:50 mix of beeswax:mutton tallow that I make at home. It works great in my 1860 Henry and 1873 Sporting Rifle. I've fired up to 100 rounds in one session without the rifle fouling out.
 
Driftwood,
Thanks for the cartridge type lesson!

I’d heard of the Benet primers, but had never seen a cutaway to explain how they worked. Thanks for the excellent written and visual explanation.
 
And thereby hangs a tale.

Howdy

Frankly, I never try to stuff 40 grains of Black Powder into a 45 Colt. If you go way back you will see that the only 45 Colt cartridge that could actually hold 40 grains of BP were the old copper cased, folded rim, Benet primed cases. They had more case capacity than any other 45 Colt cartridges. In this photo, left and middle are an early copper cased Benet primed 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridge. If you look at the cutaway you can see how these cartridges worked. The priming compound was placed on the inside bottom of the case. Then an Anvil Plate was placed on top of the priming compound and crimped in place. The crimps at the base of the cartridges are what is holding the Anvil Plate in position. When a firing pin struck the center of the case, the priming compound was crushed between the back of the case and the Anvil Plate. The flame from the priming compound would then pass through the two holes and ignite the main powder charge. Even though there was no visible primer in the cartridge head, and they looked like rimfire cases, they were a very early version of centerfire cases. I have a box of 45 Colt Benet primed cartridges from the Frankford Arsenal that were made in 1874. Those large capacity copper cases were historically the only 45 Colt cartridges that could actually hold 40 grains of Black Powder.

View attachment 899007




Benet primed cases were not manufactured for very long, they were eventually replaced by Balloon Head cases. On the left in this photo is a piece of old Remington-UMC Balloon Head 45 Colt. On the right is a modern Solid Head case. Yes, I cut them in half myself. You can see how much more powder capacity there was in the old Balloon Head cases. Powder charges of about 38 grains were most common in the old Balloon Head 45 Colt cartridges. With modern Solid Head cases, my standard Black Powder load is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg. That works out to about 33.3 grains. I compress this charge about 1/16" - 1/8" when I seat a 250 grain Big Lube bullet. That is plenty of oomph for me, I don't see the need to try to cram any more powder in than that.

View attachment 899008




Anyway, back to the original question about 'over compressing' a charge of Black Powder. Technically, no, if you can stuff a bullet on top of it, you are probably not going to have a problem, even if you cram a huge amount of powder into the case.

But other things can happen.

A few years ago I bought an original Winchester Model 1873 chambered for 38-40. This one left the factory in 1887. I had never loaded 38-40 yet, so I bought some dies and ordered some cases from Starline and some 180 grain Big Lube 38-40 bullets from Whyte Leatherworks. I buy all my Big Lube bullets from him. While waiting for my bullets to show up I found some suitable 38-40 bullets at a local shop.

View attachment 899009




Technically speaking the 38-40 cartridge case is the same as the 44-40 case, it has just been necked down further. But from the the neck back they are the same.

On the left is one of my 38-40 reloads, on the right is one of my 44-40 reloads. Both use the Big Lube style bullets, I use a 180 grain bullet in 38-40 and a 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullet in 44-40. I use Starline brass for both. If you look carefully you can see how similar the two rounds are. In fact, 38-40 brass can be made from 44-40 brass, you just have to neck it down a bit further.

View attachment 899010



My standard load for 44-40 is 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg under the 200 grain bullet. The same 2.2CC (or about 33.3 grains) that I put into my 45 Colt loads. Again, seating the bullet on that amount of powder compresses it about 1/18" -1/8".

So thinking that the powder capacity for 38-40 should be the same as 44-40, I loaded a box of ammo with that charge, and the bullets I found at the local shop. I took rifle to the range to try it out with these loads and everything worked fine. Then my Big Lube bullets showed up and I loaded up a box or two of 38-40 for an upcoming match.

When I got to the firing line at the match, and worked the lever of the rifle the first time, it jammed. I could not close the lever all the way, the round would not enter the chamber. Seeing as the rifle was over 130 years old, I was not going to force things, I grounded the rifle and finished the match with one of my trusty 44-40 rifles.

When I got home I took a good look at that ammo. As it turns out, seating the very soft, pure lead Big Lube bullets on that powder charge was the problem. The resistance to compressing the powder had caused the soft bullets to deform as they were seated. They had gotten squashed down slightly in length, and expanded slightly in diameter. It was subtle, and I had not noticed it at the time. But expansion of the bullet diameters was enough that the rounds would not chamber. Looking closely at the 2.2CC of powder in the 38-40 case, and comparing it to the same amount in a 44-40 case, it was obvious that the charge in the 38-40 was sitting much higher than the charge in the 44-40 cases. High enough that with the soft lead bullets it cause the bullets to deform as they compressed that much powder.

Lesson learned, now I load my 38-40 cases with 1.9CC of Schuetzen (about 28.5 grains) Yes, it is much less than 40 grains. But experience has taught me with modern solid head brass, and dead soft lead bullets, that is the ideal amount of powder to put in my 38-40 loads.

To the OP:

Your bullet molds look really good. Here is a photo of the 200 Grain Big Lube Mav-Dutchaman bullet, both with and without bullet lube, next to a 44 Russian and 44-40 reload of mine. The lube groove on your 38-40 mold is not quite as deep as a Big Lube mold, but it should do a pretty good job with Black Powder. Be sure you lube your bullets with SPG or some other Black Powder compatible bullet lube and they will probably perform great.

View attachment 899011
Like reading a short chapter from a very informative book.

Makes a fella think about compiling your past inputs.:thumbup:

Todd.
 
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5DC88A40-42F2-4167-80AA-9A9D7D224324.jpeg Great cartridge that 38 WCF! I shoot three of them, two Win 1873s and one Rem 14 1/2. (Oldest 1873 was made in 1887) All three very accurate!
I always wanted a 44-40 but it just never happened.
Enjoy shooting and reloading yours!
 
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