Why aren't semi-auto pistol caliber carbines (PCC) the #1 choice/recommendation for home defence?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gonna give my thoughts.
Because they’re the same size as a rifle, but their terminal ballistics aren’t quite as good. Would be my guess.
That's only relevant if we are defending ourselves with muzzleloaders or Thompson Encores. For everyone else, we can shoot the BG more than once. So terminal ballistics becomes just one of many factors to consider.

Same reason that they became less popular with military and police over the years. Rifle caliber carbines are the same size, are more effective and have fewer over penetration issues.
No, the reason was logistics. Same reason why the military standardized on JP-8 for fuel.

The bolded has been disproved in testing.....with properly selected ammo.
In my opinion, the diffrence is not enough to matter. The "Box of Truth" guys demonstrate that pretty well. Actually relying on it is as foolish as relying on the police to protect you. Both will significantly overpenitrate. Plan accordingly.

Personally, there are many reasons that others have covered. I'm going to commit hearsay by suggesting this one: The 16" AR in 223 is a pretty mediocre HD gun in a couple areas. I'll toss out a couple.

PERSONAL OPINION ZONE!!! Worth exactly what you paid for it.:p

Noise and blast indoors. People handwave this objection in any number of ways. All of them are wrong. Needlessly crippling your ability to ever hear silence again is not something to just handwave away. Instead, it should be seriously considered.

Absent a suppressor, it's true that there's nothing hearing safe for HD. However, there is absolutely a diffrence in HOW MUCH your hearing will be damaged by each. A short 5.56 is pretty much the worst, among common HD options, for your hearing.

Even with ear and eye protection, these guns can be simply not fun to shoot in a partially or fully enclosed range. Let alone a house. The blast can make your head ring and eyes water, depending on how sensitive a person is. People have told me they don't like shooting centerfold rifles. In actuality, they had been given a 16" AR or AK with a flash hider and they didn't like the muzzle blast. Give them a plain muzzle 18" Mini-14, a PC-9, or even a 30-30 and they're having fun. Practice and proficiency are important.

So why give yourself permanent tinnitus to shoot a 300 yard cartridge in a 10 yard hallway when a 9mm PCC is going to be much less damaging to you and your families hearing and be just as effective? If you actually pull the trigger, you're gonna keep pulling it till they're on the floor or out the door. So nerding out over single round stop statistics is not the end-all some think it is. If it was, we'd still all be using 12 gauge for HD.

The AR charging handle. A great many "pro-gun but not gun nut" shooters work the AR charging handle like a monkey doing a math problem. Like it or not, many HD guns are kept condition 3 or 4. Side-charging designs are much more newbie friendly and just easier to operate in general.

There are others, but I think those two should spark enough discussion for now.:D
 
Last edited:
No, the reason was logistics. Same reason why the military standardized on JP-8 for fuel.
I don’t really see logistics as a primary driver of why police departments ditched 9mm MP5s in favor of .223 carbines, if one reads the police journals of the time. For example:
”A 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbine with a minimum of a 14.5" to 16.5" barrel may be the most effective and versatile weapon for use in law enforcement. When used with effective ammunition, the 5.56mm/.223 carbine simultaneously offers both greater effective range and less potential downrange hazard to bystanders than a 12 ga. shotgun, handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG , as well as far greater potential to incapacitate a violent criminal than any handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG.

...

“The routine issuing of 5.56mm/.223 semi-automatic carbines for general purpose use to all law enforcement officers would significantly enhance officer safety, increase police effectiveness, and decrease dangers to innocent bystanders in all situations requiring the use of firearms.

Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.
If you have access to a university library, more articles along those lines are:

Fairburn D., "So, You're Ready for a Rifle?" Police Marksman May/Jun 1997, pp. 24-26.

Schanen, B., "The 5.56mm/.223: A Law Enforcement Perspective," Police Marksman, Sep/Oct 2000, pp. 30-38.

Kelly S.W., "The Patrol Rifle," Police Marksman, Jan/Feb 2003, pp. 38-40.
In my opinion, the diffrence is not enough to matter. The "Box of Truth" guys demonstrate that pretty well. Actually relying on it is as foolish as relying on the police to protect you. Both will significantly overpenitrate. Plan accordingly.
True. But a .223 carbine with appropriately chosen JHPs or SPs is certainly no worse than a pistol or buckshot from an overpenetration standpoint.

Noise and blast indoors. People handwave this objection in any number of ways. All of them are wrong. Needlessly crippling your ability to ever hear silence again is not something to just handwave away. Instead, it should be seriously considered.
Again, a fair point; a pistol caliber carbine definitely has lower peak dB than a .223 carbine, and will be less blasty to shoot indoors.

However, a 16” to 18” .223 *with no brake* is quite comparable in peak dB to a 4” 9mm or an 18” 12-gauge, and significantly less loud than a .357 revolver shooting full-power loads. So while the hearing damage/disorientation issue weighs against things like .223 pistols or .223 SBRs, or any .223 with a muzzle brake, .223 carbines with non-NFA-length barrels aren’t unreasonable choices compared to handguns or defensive shotguns, IMO.

The AR charging handle. A great many "pro-gun but not gun nut" shooters work the AR charging handle like a monkey dong a math problem. Like it or not, many HD guns are kept condition 3 or 4. Side-charging designs are much more newbie friendly and just easier to operate in general.
My AR has a BCM charging handle designed for left-side charging, and it works great. I don’t care for the standard slingshot handle, either.

I don’t really like right-side charging handles as a right-hand shooter, though; I would typically still run those with my left hand if feasible.

BUT, for a novice, I think a charging handle fixed to the bolt or bolt carrier, left or right, may be helpful in aiding what I’d call “chamber awareness”. It is a little more complicated to do a press check on an AR or Tavor than on a mini-14 or AK, or a typical PCC. And I think that in general, making press checks uncomplicated is a good thing.

There are others, but I think those two should spark enough discussion for now.:D
A good discussion! And I don’t think there is necessarily just one right answer. People and their situations and preferences are different, and gun forums would be boring if it weren’t for caliber/platform debates. :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
I don’t really see logistics as a primary driver of why police departments ditched 9mm MP5s in favor of .223 carbines, if one reads the police journals of the time.
For the military it was absolutely about logistics and that was my focus. I kinda ignored the police aspect. I should have mentioned that.

For police, it was because the feds were throwing surplus M16s, parts, and ammo at them. Why spend money maintaining your MP5 inventory when you can get discounted AR parts?

...simultaneously offers both greater effective range and less potential downrange hazard to bystanders than a 12 ga. shotgun, handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG , as well as far greater potential to incapacitate a violent criminal than any handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or SMG.

This is self-refuting. "It's more lethal and has a greater effective range, yet is less lethal with a shorter effective range." :confused:

Not your fault of course. A lot of magazine articles on all sorts of subjects have had such incoherent filler in them. I did it in my high school essays.

However, a 16” to 18” .223 *with no brake* is quite comparable in peak dB to a 4” 9mm or an 18” 12-gauge, and significantly less loud than a .357 revolver shooting full-power loads.
I would absolutely agree with that. One of the nuances that one needs to consider. I don't use ported revolvers for serious defense because of the increased noise. Not to mention possibly being blinded if one had to fire with the gun tucked in close. Also the reason why I've kept my Mini-14s with smooth muzzles. Yea they're a bit bright in lower light with regular ammo, but they're so much nicer to shoot at a covered range.

I don’t really like right-side charging handles as a right-hand shooter, though; I would typically still run those with my left hand if feasible.
I like to run my PCCs with a left hand charging handle. Though I can use either one if needed.

BUT, for a novice, I think a charging handle fixed to the bolt or bolt carrier, left or right, may be helpful in aiding what I’d call “chamber awareness”. It is a little more complicated to do a press check on an AR or Tavor than on a mini-14 or AK, or a typical PCC. And I think that in general, making press checks uncomplicated is a good thing.
A very good point. That didn't even cross my mind. Showing a beginner how to properly use the forward assist is a great deal more complicated than just having them gently bop the charging handle. That's an issue with the FAL. You have to slingshot it just enough so you don't have that 1 in 100 chance of the bolt not going all the way into battery.
 
For police, it was because the feds were throwing surplus M16s, parts, and ammo at them. Why spend money maintaining your MP5 inventory when you can get discounted AR parts?

What do you base this on?

I can’t speak for other states, but no one in my somewhat large department or in any of the small nearby or large statewide departments that we cross train with uses fed gov supplied rifles. As to ammo, we buy ours, and I’m unaware of the feds passing out ammo either, but most sub guns used 9mm so that shouldn’t be an issue. In fact, since our duty handgun is 9mm, logistically it would make more sense to use subguns and only have to purchase one caliber for everything.

It is now considered a “best practice” for domestic entry teams to use 5.56 because of over-penetration testing. This becomes a legal liability issue.

Similarly, patrol cops are permitted to use buckshot for emergency door breaching, because it is understood that the patrol shotgun is loaded with buckshot and that is likely all a patrol cop has on hand. For a planned breaching by a trained entry team (i.e SWAT), best practice is to use a specific breaching round to limit damage to unseen people who may be on the other side of a door. A SWAT team that used buckshot for breaching and unintentionally hurt someone would be likely to be held liable for failing to follow the industry standard.

As for noise, my 5.56 is suppressed and electronic muffs are right next to it.

This is all fine details. Obviously any gun you can use to defend yourself is a start, but when the question is “why isn’t this the best gun for home defense” a good place to look may be the professionals who switched from that very type of gun for in home gunfights.

Also to be fair, over penetration isn’t the only issue. Bad guys at some point started wearing body armor more often. While not common, not a non factor, and another benefit of the rifle round.
 
Last edited:
This is self-refuting. "It's more lethal and has a greater effective range, yet is less lethal with a shorter effective range." :confused:
IIRC, the “less downrange hazard to bystanders” argument was backed up by discussion of hit probability (semiauto carbine having fewer projectiles missing the target and heading downrange than a pistol, a shotgun with buckshot, or an SMG), a discussion of ricochet vs fragmentation probabilities, ballistic gel tests with bullets passing through intervening building materials first, and whatnot (civilian .223 loads demonstrating much more degradation in wounding ability in gelatin after passing through barriers, compared to pistol rounds or buckshot). The argument that semiauto .223 carbines are simultaneously more effective, and cause less hazard downrange, is not an irrational one.

As I recall, many early adopters of .223 in SWAT skewed heavily toward very-limited-penetration loads; IIRC Federal Blitz? 40gr JHP was once quite a thing, 8-9” penetration in gelatin and all. Then it was realized that 55-62gr SP and JHP were more versatile without creating much more hazard downrange, and now it seems that 75-77gr loads are more in vogue for non-LE; I am mostly out of the loop on LE trends now, so I can’t say whether LE has followed that trend.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top