Reliability of a mil-spec 1911 Gov't

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Upon further review, since the military no longer issues the 1911 as its primary handgun ... the whole conversation is moot. There is no such thing now as a "mil-spec 1911." (Aside from the pistols manufactured as "Gov't Models" in the '40s by Colt, Remington-Rand, Singer, Ithaca, and a couple others, and then Colt into the early '50s, I still think the SA "G.I." and one Auto Ordnance produced for a minute were pretty fair copies)

Let's move on and bash the new "mil-spec" pistol: the M17/M18 (SIG P-320), shall we? (We've already got a head start ...)
 
There's a couple issues for reliability, IMO.

If you are referring to a 1911A1 which was a military contract gun, and it was used till it was worn out, then auctioned off, then one of those old, whooped to tar workhorses might have mechanical or soot problems, or a combination of both. OTOH, if you are merely referring to a 1911A1
MilSpec Grade pistol, which has been manufactured to grade, but in good condition, and reasonably clean, then IME, they are a reliable pistol.
I even had a Norinco 1911A1 that ran like a sewing machine. Pretty sure the Chinese didn't go out of their way to make their 1911 pattern pistol
up to D.O.D. specs, but it was clean, LNIB, and ran well.

Obviously, if you allow it to run dirty, long enough, it's going to have performance issues, after a time.
 
A question on the "reliability" of a mil-spec 1911 Gov't.

In my opinion - and experience - most "mil-spec" 1911s will be reliable. The one's I have worked with are Colts, Springfields, Dan Wessons, Kimbers, and a Argentine clone. The only brand I'd "knock" is Kimber ... just because I had some problems with their products, and their customer service was abysmal. The rest ... reliable.

I've personally shot several 1911 Gov't's that had fouling coming out of every orifice on the pistol. So filthy the slide wouldn't lock back, so filthy you had to force a magazine in (I stopped after that). Is the the norm, or an exception ? Is a modern production "milspec" Gov't (say, Colt's Classic line) this reliable ?

Are you asking whether reliability is the norm, or filthy is the norm? Either way, clean your pistols, boy! :p.

As far as "mil-spec" 1911s, I have no complaints. Then again, I've decided that the 1911 is one of my favorite models. If you run a 1911 all fouled and gummed up, of course there can be issues. I've fired hundreds of rounds through some of my 1911s without cleaning, and never had an issue.

Colt O1911 (WW1 reissue) - tight and beautiful pistol.
My Ithaca 1911A1 (1944) rattles a bit, but is both reliable and accurate
Springfield GI - retrofitted with actual GI trigger, hammer, thumb safety, grips safety, and grips. It ran well with all-Springfield parts, and runs just as well with its GI upgrades.
My Sistema Colt (1953) is tight, reliable and accurate. I guess that one is double-mil-spec (U.S. and Argentina).
Colt Series 70 (for all intents and purposes the commercial version of the 1911A1, with nicer finish and some cosmetics)

Colt Commander (Series 80) ... OK, now we're deviating a bit from "mil-spec", but this is one of my three my EDC choices
Dan Wesson Guardian Commander ... further deviation, but this is my go-to EDC

Springfield Mil-Spec ... which is not actually mil-spec, but is a heck of a pistol - I've had one for over 25 years, running it hard, and its still a great shooter.

And the one clunker ... Colt Series 80 (ORM) ... IMHO, Colt was having a bad time in the mid-to-late 90s - the worst fit and finish of any of my 1911s. Rattled and wiggled like a warhorse that was past its prime. Still reliable, though.
 
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Has been very reliable since I replaced the original Springfield Inc. mag (which inexplicably has a little dimple in one of the feed lips) with a Wilson mag.
I don't know if CheckMate is the mag supplier to Springfield, but they put a dimple at the top right side of their mag tubes (not on the feed lips, though) to help clear the mag catch. Wilson ETM mags also have that dimple. It is a handy feature that works well.

I can't think of any other makers that use this feature.
 
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It was mentioned that the gun pictured here is pretty far from a GI piece.

The sights are much improved and resemble Colt commercial sights from recent decades which are actually quite good, but not GI. These sights also have a gold bead. Also not GI.

The lowered and flared ejection port...not GI.
The bushing not GI. Not just that it's stainless but also it's design, not GI.

Other than that it's GI looking that comes mostly from the parkerized finish. The differences are enhancements that improve the function of the piece.
I totally agree, and am familiar with the original's "shortcomings". Even though it operated reliably (for the most part) through years of military abuse, the only reason I'd want one (and I do) is for its historic significance and as a collector piece. The A1 has the advantage of having most, if not all, the shortcomings of the original model corrected, and as such, is the better firearm for use today, IMO. The barrel bushing, for instance, is a big improvement over the original's collet-style, which was prone to break fingers off. Larger sights are easier to aim with, the arched mainspring housing on some models were cumbersome to many with smaller hands, the enlarged ejection port made for more reliable function. About the only real original design features it does keep are the short trigger and absence of the firing pin safety. Even the hammer block has been redesigned, but is a better one than the original.

To return to the barrel bushing for short comment; When shopping for another 1911 to complement the one I have, I looked at many versions that have eliminated the bushing altogether, and I was 'on the fence' whether I wanted one, as it is a traditional part of the pistol, even though the ones today are a redesign. However after firing one, and field stripping it, I've come to like the bushingless version, with its full length recoil spring rod, as well as the bushing versions. I find it quicker to field strip, and its function is just as good.
 
...The A1 has the advantage of having most, if not all, the shortcomings of the original model corrected, and as such, is the better firearm for use today, IMO. The barrel bushing, for instance, is a big improvement over the original's collet-style, which was prone to break fingers off. Larger sights are easier to aim with, the arched mainspring housing on some models were cumbersome to many with smaller hands, the enlarged ejection port made for more reliable function.
Whoa, I think we're confusing some stuff here.

The "collet bushing" was a design feature of the Colt Series 70 guns produced in the 1970's and early 1980's. It wasn't a feature of the original 1911.

The 1911A1 added the arched mainspring housing. The original 1911 had a flat mainspring housing.
 
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To return to the barrel bushing for short comment; When shopping for another 1911 to complement the one I have, I looked at many versions that have eliminated the bushing altogether, and I was 'on the fence' whether I wanted one, as it is a traditional part of the pistol, even though the ones today are a redesign. However after firing one, and field stripping it, I've come to like the bushingless version, with its full length recoil spring rod, as well as the bushing versions. I find it quicker to field strip, and its function is just as good.

I don't like full length guide rods. I have had my overly long reloads jam the slide of several of my 1911's. This is my fault of course but it revealed a failure mode that I did not like. When a round is thousandth's of an inch too long, and jams in the throat, I do not have the hand strength to rack the slide and clear the jam. Nor, is the slide far enough forward to fire the round. This jam can be easily cleared in 1911's without guide rods. You place the muzzle over the edge of a table, recoil spring plug resting on the table, and push on the grip. The jammed round will clear. Now, if you have a guide rod, you are going to have a lot more fun clearing this type of jam.

So, the heck with guide rods. I never saw any real reason for the things except more profit for aftermarket parts vendors. No Bullseye shooter I know uses one, if they improved accuracy or function one iota, everyone would have one. Hench, they are advertising induced behavior.

I like much about the original GI configuration except for the sights!. Nineteen century sights are hard to use. But, they don't snag, and if you use your 1911 within spitting distance, you don't really need them anyway!

bYTfb5t.jpg

Only my Clackamus Kimber and my Les Baer wadcutter functioned 100% without tweaking. My Colt Combat Elite had too many problems to list, when it was new. Wilson Combat made the thing perfect though, those guys are great.

Kh44mJG.jpg

All other 1911's required some work or tweaking to get them to run perfectly. My most recent 1911 purchase was the pictured RIA. Magazines unlatched, RIA sent me a new part, and magazines stayed in the pistol.

HKG4Mao.jpg

I sent the pistol back complaining about excessive recoil, elevation being way off, and heavy copper fouling in the tube. Lead bullets cannot be used as they lead foul the barrel at an unbelievable rate. RIA fixed the sights, more or less. Did something so the pistol does not recoil as hard, it does not eat up a shock buff within 100 rounds. The fouling is the same, can only use jacketed bullets as lead fouling is excessive and hard to clear. The pistol shoots closer to aim than before, RIA sent me this target, so it shoots better than I can hold.

wLLy0k1.jpg

One of these days I will spend the hour or so typing in the period documents making the case that this pistol was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. This issue came up before 1913 and was discussed at the very top of the Ordnance Bureau. As was said at the time, the safety is not a safety. It is not a safety in terms of a positive mechanical safety, like that on the 03 rifle, or M98 Mauser. On those weapons, the firing pin is positively cammed back and even if the firing pin is hit with a hammer, the safety will hold. The 1911 safety is a sear blocking safety, subject to shearing if the hammer is hit, and should not, and was not, trusted at the time.

qfw9CGh.jpg

Cocked and locked is the foundational tenant of Cult Cocked and Locked, but from the get go, this pistol was to be carried hammer down with a round in the chamber, in the flap holster. The men who procured this pistol (and I mean General Crozier) thought carrying cocked and locked too damn dangerous for their men, and from the paper trail, there were examples of the safety bumping off, in the flap holster, when carried cocked and locked. The safety was a temporary measure until the trooper could use two hands and get the hammer down. The original GI configuration had wide hammer spurs and a small tang safety so the pistol would be easy to thumb cock. I don't mind the A1 version as the tang safety still allows thumb cocking. De cocking still takes two hands, and I think this is the most fool proof way to lower the hammer

These show where the various fingers are placed,

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Combine the placement of fingers

fVVyO65.jpg

hand all over the rear, obscuring the view, but everything is in place.

cy5kz5T.jpg

Lowering the hammer with the thumb only will result in an accidental discharge. At some time in the future the hammer will slip and the gun will go bang. Once the hammer is down, the pistol can be dropped on the hammer, and the rebounding firing pin will not contact the primer. The pistol is not to be carried on the half cock, or the full cock, as a blow to the hammer will shear the sear surfaces and cause an accidental discharge.
 
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There's no reason to revive the dead horse of Condition 1 or Condition 2. We've all see the Army recommendations.

Different times, different issues.

I've carried a 1911 cocked and locked for 40 years. I can count the number of times I've found the safety off on the fingers of one foot.
 
I don't like full length guide rods. I have had my overly long reloads jam the slide of several of my 1911's. This is my fault of course but it revealed a failure mode that I did not like. When a round is thousandth's of an inch too long, and jams in the throat, I do not have the hand strength to rack the slide and clear the jam. Nor, is the slide far enough forward to fire the round. This jam can be easily cleared in 1911's without guide rods. You place the muzzle over the edge of a table, recoil spring plug resting on the table, and push on the grip. The jammed round will clear. Now, if you have a guide rod, you are going to have a lot more fun clearing this type of jam.

So, the heck with guide rods. I never saw any real reason for the things except more profit for aftermarket parts vendors.
I'd rather not have a full length guide rod, but after using a pistol with one, discovered I can live with it. If you have so little grip strength you can't grasp the slide of a 1911 tight enough to rack it open to clear a FTF, I'd suggest getting a revolver might be in order. I've seen people clear 1911's the way you describe, and I'd never recommend it in a firearms class, except to say don't do it. I see it as a bad habit developed by an owner, similar to skeet shooters propping the muzzle of their shotgun on their foot between shots. It works, until it doesn't. Proper clearing of a FTF requires dropping the magazine and manually, that means without the nearby tabletop, pulling the slide back to eject the jammed cartridge.

One of these days I will spend the hour or so typing in the period documents making the case that this pistol was not designed to be carried cocked and locked. This issue came up before 1913 and was discussed at the very top of the Ordnance Bureau. As was said at the time, the safety is not a safety. It is not a safety in terms of a positive mechanical safety, like that on the 03 rifle, or M98 Mauser. On those weapons, the firing pin is positively cammed back and even if the firing pin is hit with a hammer, the safety will hold. The 1911 safety is a sear blocking safety, subject to shearing if the hammer is hit, and should not, and was not, trusted at the time.

View attachment 901475
That image doesn't show the half-cock notch, which is above the sear notch and just forward of the hammer neck. It resides where it is to block the hammer's fall if the sear fails for any reason, including a drop onto the hammer when cocked. The early models (Series 70) used more of a hook that did have a tendency to break, which could result in a discharge, but the redesign that you find in the A1 uses a more robust inset notch that catches the sear hook and stops the hammer. In all likelihood the neck of the hammer will break before the half cock notch, which will also prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin. I do accept that there will always be an incident where nothing works as designed and a drop will cause a discharge, but I trust J.M. Browning's design. I also applaud the larger beavertail on newer versions, as they tend to "hood" the hammer spur, further protecting it from a drop.
Cocked and locked is the foundational tenant of Cult Cocked and Locked, but from the get go, this pistol was to be carried hammer down with a round in the chamber, in the flap holster. The men who procured this pistol (and I mean General Crozier) thought carrying cocked and locked too damn dangerous for their men, and from the paper trail, there were examples of the safety bumping off, in the flap holster, when carried cocked and locked. The safety was a temporary measure until the trooper could use two hands and get the hammer down. The original GI configuration had wide hammer spurs and a small tang safety so the pistol would be easy to thumb cock. I don't mind the A1 version as the tang safety still allows thumb cocking. De cocking still takes two hands, and I think this is the most fool proof way to lower the hammer

Lowering the hammer with the thumb only will result in an accidental discharge. At some time in the future the hammer will slip and the gun will go bang. Once the hammer is down, the pistol can be dropped on the hammer, and the rebounding firing pin will not contact the primer. The pistol is not to be carried on the half cock, or the full cock, as a blow to the hammer will shear the sear surfaces and cause an accidental discharge.
I won't argue C1 vs C2 vs C3 carry. I carry C1, it's no different than carrying a striker-fired pistol with a chambered round and the safety engaged. There are TWO safeties in place when carrying a 1911 in C1: grip safety and slide/hammer safety. Individually, they both prevent the trigger from being pulled, and together provide adequate and redundant prevention of an unintended discharge. Plus, the preferred method of safing a 1911 in C1 to lower the hammer is to eject the magazine and rack the slide, same as the process for a FTF malfunction. No firearms instructor I've ever seen teaches it any other way.
 
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Upon further review, since the military no longer issues the 1911 as its primary handgun ... the whole conversation is moot. There is no such thing now as a "mil-spec 1911." (Aside from the pistols manufactured as "Gov't Models" in the '40s by Colt, Remington-Rand, Singer, Ithaca, and a couple others, and then Colt into the early '50s, I still think the SA "G.I." and one Auto Ordnance produced for a minute were pretty fair copies)

Let's move on and bash the new "mil-spec" pistol: the M17/M18 (SIG P-320), shall we? (We've already got a head start ...)
The specification is still valid, ergo, there still such a thing as a "Military Specification" M1911A1, if someone in the Federal Government wished to buy some.

D-P-355A NOTICE 3
04-Oct-2013
D-P-355A, dated 26-Dec-2000, remains inactive for new design; however, the document is valid for use.
 
They are reliable for the ammo that meets military specs. Every semi auto has a range of power levels and bullet shapes that work reliably. The 1911 design is pretty reliable with a wide range of ammo, It,s a matter of making adjustments to include the bullet and load you want to shoot if needed.

Most mil spec guns being made now have reliability improvements already so they will handle modern factory ammo including hollow point ammunition.
 
The feed ramp on the 1911 is shaped to feed "ball" ammunition, the FMJ round, but I don't know if the newer guns have changed that or not, given how many different loads there now are in .45ACP. My .45 will feed the more 'cone' shaped JHP's just fine, but my little .32ACP 1903 Pocket Hammerless won't feed anything but FMJ. It fails to feed on the second round of JHP's every single time, (factory ammo), and it is always the nose of the bullet stuck at the bottom of the feed ramp, the cartridge stuck between ramp and breech of the slide. It was built in 1943 and was a GI-issue.
 
The specification is still valid, ergo, there still such a thing as a "Military Specification" M1911A1, if someone in the Federal Government wished to buy some.

D-P-355A NOTICE 3
04-Oct-2013
Yet again, further proof that even when one is attempting irony, sarcasm or humor ... someone will come along to dispute what one's said ...
 
The feed ramp on the 1911 is shaped to feed "ball" ammunition, the FMJ round, but I don't know if the newer guns have changed that or not, given how many different loads there now are in .45ACP. My .45 will feed the more 'cone' shaped JHP's just fine, but my little .32ACP 1903 Pocket Hammerless won't feed anything but FMJ. It fails to feed on the second round of JHP's every single time, (factory ammo), and it is always the nose of the bullet stuck at the bottom of the feed ramp, the cartridge stuck between ramp and breech of the slide. It was built in 1943 and was a GI-issue.

There has not been a 1911 platform gun built in the last 20-30 years that has not been adjusted to reliably feed JHPs. Or at least most JHPs. The ramps are smooth and the chamber throated. Colt some years back placed a dimple there to make the guns practically jam proof. No one I can think of makes GI mil spec barrels anymore. No one wants to buy them. You can find them at gun shows but...for a working gun they generally are not used. Folks like Dan Wesson install fully ramped barrels.
 
Hi All:

just getting back into shooting after a hiatus from gunplay/forum posting for, wow, 8 years or so. Just offering a data point on 1911 pistols: I have a ‘44 Remington-Rand that I’ve put 125,000 rounds through, to say nothing of rounds possibly fired in anger from WWII through Vietnam Nam. This Old Slabsides can still fit 5 shots into 4” at 25 yards with its skimpy sights and my coke bottle glasses. The tip of the extractor broke off at, IIRC, 87,000 rounds and was easily replaced with a R-R USGI surplus extractor without issue. It rattles when shaken, it’s reparked finish is worn, but hot damn that is one reliable firearm.

forgot to say - never one failure to fire/extract except when the extractor broke
 
16 lbs. is more than enough on the recoil spring. 18.5 slams the lugs together harder than necessary.
 
De cocking still takes two hands, and I think this is the most fool proof way to lower the hammer
JMB's 1911 patent expressed a different opinion:

(from numbered page 7 or the 10th page of the patent document)
Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing-pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act, because the trigger had to be pulled with the first finger of the right hand to release the hammer and the grip-lever had simultaneously to be pressed into the grip to release the trigger for operation, to do this required the keeping of the thumb of the right hand in a horizontal position on the left side of the grip. Therefore it was impracticable to also extend the thumb of the right hand, while this hand pressed in the grip-lever and pulled the trigger, upward so as to rest upon the thumb-piece of the hammer and, thus controlling the hammer, to gently lower the same and restrain it from falling and from striking the firing-pin, because any attempt to do this would result in loosening the necessary hold upon the grip-lever. Consequently the lowering of the hammer had to be performed by the other hand, this is a serious drawback in a military arm, as a soldier and especially a mounted soldier does not in action have both hands free for such use. To overcome this difficulty, I have provided the grip-lever, w with a projecting nose w2 in rear of its pivot, which stands closely in rear of, and below the hammer when cocked, and the hammer is so fitted that it may be drawn rearward somewhat farther than to its cocked position. When the hammer is drawn fully back it strikes the nose w2 and, by pressing the same downward, it causes the grip-lever to turn on its pivot forcing the lower portion into the grip, thereby releasing the trigger. By this arrangement the thumb of the hand grasping the grip needs not to be kept at the side of the grip for pressing in the grip-lever, but the thumb may be applied to the hammer and through the same operate the grip-lever to release the trigger, then the trigger may be operated with the first finger of the same hand to release the hammer and finally the thumb, still applied to the hammer, may allow the same to slowly descend to the safety position, without requiring the aid of the other hand. The rearward projecting nose w2 of the grip-lever w below the hammer q and in rear of the pivot-pin w1, serves to perform another important function in addition to that of providing the point of contact between the grip lever and the hammer, by means of which, the grip lever may be operated to release the trigger by drawing the hammer fully rearward, as hereinbefore described.

In short, the hammer can be pulled back far enough to hit the grip safety's tang, which depresses the grip safety. This allows the grip safety to be disengaged, the trigger to be pulled, and the hammer to be lowered, all using only one hand.
 
The specification is still valid, ergo, there still such a thing as a "Military Specification" M1911A1, if someone in the Federal Government wished to buy some.

D-P-355A NOTICE 3
04-Oct-2013

It may exist but that doesn't mean any of today's manufacturers are abiding by those specifications. Today "Mil-Spec" is just an advertising phrase used by makers to make their plane-Jane 1911s sound like something special.

Dave
 
I have a gov't model dating back to 1927. Guy I bouggt it from buggered the original slide, but otherwise, all original parts save for some springs. No way to know how many rounds have been thru it, but it runs like a sewing machine.
 
It may exist but that doesn't mean any of today's manufacturers are abiding by those specifications. Today "Mil-Spec" is just an advertising phrase used by makers to make their plane-Jane 1911s sound like something special.

Dave

That was the point I was trying to make in my previous posts in this thread. "MIL-SPEC" is an over used term now days and has lost some of it's meaning (at least to me). I had to deal with vendors while in the Army and dealt with Military Specifications and Military Standards.
 
And the one clunker ... Colt Series 80 (ORM) ... IMHO, Colt was having a bad time in the mid-to-late 90s - the worst fit and finish of any of my 1911s. Rattled and wiggled like a warhorse that was past its prime. Still reliable, though.
I posted a few months ago about working on my 90s Colt Commander. I bought it used and the previous owner said something like "I guess I just can't shoot a 1911." I put it up for years after finding it jammed every mag.

Last year I bought Wilson Combat mags and it worked perfectly. This month I finally got to test my theory... I put new wolff +5% springs in the old mags and Presto!, 0 failures to feed!

And my Remington R1 Enhanced has run flawlessly with ball and JHP. For all of Remington's issues, they made this one right.
 
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