Sideways squished primers on 650

Status
Not open for further replies.
CMV

CMV

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
781
Location
Winston-Salem, NC
What causes that? Seeing about 1 in 125 with a primer going in on its side & squishing flat. Usually feel it & catch it right there, but a few get by. Using Wolf primers, saw the same thing with Fiocchi though. Filling with a Vibraprime that needs a lot of little tapping to keep primers moving. Going to do tonight's run just pecking with pickuptubes to see if the problem is somehow the Vibraprime or its tube. Using mised brass.

If it was sideways in the tube on the press, wouldn't the primer disk flip it one way or another when it picked it up? Looks like it should happen that way to me - it wouldn't allow it stay sideways out of the tube on the press.

Other than the occasional stops because a primer felt off (or have a crimp - there's a little NATO brass in the mix) everything seems correct and normal.
 
Had it happen on a 550, generally when I'm going fast and more aggressive with the handle. That added jostling may contribute to the primer bouncing a little and not sitting properly in the pocket.


002.JPG
 
Could be. I was going pretty easy since I know there's crimped brass in the mix. 400 in about an hour & that's with primer tubes already filled & only 1 stop halfway to refill powder & bullet tray. Wasn't rushing or being 'jerky' with handle.
 
Make sure the little spring tab is not touch the cartridges at the priming station. It should be just barely not touch the cartridge when fully seated in the shell plate. Make sure the shell plate axle is screwed down as tight as possible without cause the shell plate to bind or have too much friction. You want at little vertical play in the shell plate as possible. Make sure the priming system is clean. I find a little dry film lubrication (teflon) helps it operate smooth without gumming up.

Finally be smooth with the lever. Move in a nice even rate with no fast stops and starts.
 
If it can get sideways in the tube, you have the wrong tube installed. So first, I’d make sure all of the LP or SP parts are installed.

Sideways primers can happen with the reciprocal priming systems like the SD, 550, 750 and 1050 because they use a plastic tip on the tube. The 650 is brass, if the knurled nut on the blast shield isn’t so loose the tube can lift away from the disk, the primer can’t go from the tube into the disk sideways.

That said, a sticking expander and less than ridged mounting could let them bounce sideways after they are in the disk and as you noted they can become sideways trying to seat them into crimped pockets. The station #2 locator also has an adjustment so the case is not pushed to the inside of the shell plate (off center).

If you want to eliminate the feed system as the source of the problem this method will do that for you and eliminate the above variables. If everything is free of obstructions you don’t even need the weight of the follower and you can watch each one come out right side up.



Once you are satisfied it’s not the feed system you can move on to finding the actual issue.
 
Last edited:
I have had it happen on my 650 as well. Not with the frequency you are describing though. I usually run mine fairly slowly and try to make sure everything is where it ought to be as I pull the lever. I have noticed that spilled powder seems to contribute to the problem.
 
On my 550 if I’ve screwed the cap holding the early warning buzzer atop the primer tube down too tight it causes the primer cup to drag on the lips of primer feed tube flipping the primer.

I also need to readjust the primer slide stop button occasionally.

I gave up on the auto feature of the primer slide years ago. I removed the actuating arm and cycle the slide with my left hand. Doing this has almost eliminated primer flips and misfeeds. I’ve done it so much now it’s automatic and doesn’t slow the rate of finished cartridges. I’m not advocating it, it just works for me. To me the primer system has always been the Achilles heel of any progressive press.
 
When I got my 650, I carried over a lot of "homemade" mods from the 550 that seemed to help. One of those was adding a 45ACP case top the top of the black, primer weight rod. Now of course, the 550 sometimes needs help with primer release at the dispensing end, and on that first day I hadn't fully digested that the 650 had no such dispensing system.

NVwWda2.jpg

But now after (what ?) 3 years of ownership, and running every brand of primer sold through my 650, I have not seen this primer flipping issue issue. I always contributed the "primer flipping issue" to dragging under the shellplate, but maybe it happens at the "handoff" between the primer tube and primer transport ??

Just a thought.
.
 
Last edited:
mokin said:
I have noticed that spilled powder seems to contribute to the problem.
Click to expand...

Or indicative of the problem, a sticky expander can cause both when it “lets go”.

like the first 10 seconds of this video.



Again, you can test the feed system like the video in #5 all day long and eliminate or confirm it as the cause. You get rid of 50% of the possibilities right off the bat, with no guessing involved.
 
Sometimes a little grime (spilled powder or primer residue or brass shavings) building up beneath the primer carousel will cause them to flip as the carousel rotates. May be time for a good cleaning.
 
Pretty clean. Got tore down for a "deep clean" about 6k rounds ago. Just changed setup (same primer size, have never installed large primer components) and did the basic wipedown/cleaning associated with that.

As far as rigidity, on the strong mount, homemade work bench of laminated 2x4 & butcher block. But in a 2nd floor spare bedroom. Bench is stout, but just each leg screwed into subfloor so not wobbly, but not rock solid either. I should do some L-brackets and go into wall studs behind bench & that would help a lot, just haven't gotten around to yet.

I will check nut at top of tube. Didn't think about it & rarely mess with it, so it could be loose.

I'm not getting sideways on crimped brass, but reading replies & thinking about it, seems to happen right after dealing with something hanging up in station 1 or 2. So hit a crimp in station 2, or the case bounces back a little in station #1 & doesn't go into sizing die.....those cases don't get a sideways primer, but one or two after that defect has the issue. And not every single time, but 3 out of 400 last night - way too high a failure rate.

I have fought the timing & station #2 locator since owning this press. And all that is due to priming. Just not lining up correctly 100% of the time, seeming like the primer seating rod isn't perfectly centered in shellplate cutout, whatever, has always been something. Doesn't help that most of what i load is 9mm & 223 so crimps (or poorly swaged crimps) amplify priming related stoppages.

But I thought I finally had this thing right. Shellplate bolt just right, timing centering priming rod just right, enough rounds loaded (~15k?) that "feel" is there, station #2 holding where it should, etc. Experimented with some aftermarket stuff like the delrin detent ball, roller bearing for shellplate, & others. Went back to all stock parts thousands of rounds ago (none of those 'upgrades' made it index any smoother). And, it really is running well overall, just the sideways primers has now popped up as an issue. It has done it before - like maybe 2 rounds per 30 cal can (~1200) of 9mm, but never like last night's run.
 
jmorris said:
Or indicative of the problem, a sticky expander can cause both when it “lets go”.

like the first 10 seconds of this video.

Click to expand...


I'm using Lee die & Lee pro auto disk powder measure. I actually set it to cause that little hang-up because I thought you were supposed to. i thought that little bump ensured no powder was hung up in the disk or anything & that little bump helped. It's not a lot, but definitely a little bump coming out of there. Sure doesn't feel like enough jostling that it could make a primer do tricks.

On the first video (and thanks for posting both!), that looks like same thing you do when you want to empty the last bit of primers when finished or changing over? Have done that many times and never noticed anything off but can do that again tonight and watch a bunch just to make sure. Won't hurt to tear down & make sure everything is real clean too.

And to be sure, I should be adding NO kind of lubrication anywhere around there. Station 1 locator, ram, and casefeed ramp are only thing in that vicinity that get any sort of oil or grease. Everything associated with station #2 should be clean and bone dry correct?
 
My 550C does that with small primers sometimes, drive me nuts. Like others are saying, 1-2/100 tops. For some reason, it happens most with 38 special, not sure why that is. The best I can do I try to pay attention to the cup to make sure I can see it sitting flat. That would be much harder on a 650, the disk priming system is different. On the new 750, the priming system is much closer to that on the 550C that I have.
 
Is the primer punch and 'holder' correct for the size of primer? A small primer in a large primer tool will flop around a bit.

Probably not your immediate problem, but I have found Remington and Federal primers are of softer metal for the 'cups'. They require less firing pin pressure to fire, but tend to crumple in the automated seating process. (Work okay in hand priming devices.)
 
Archie said:
Is the primer punch and 'holder' correct for the size of primer? A small primer in a large primer tool will flop around a bit.

Probably not your immediate problem, but I have found Remington and Federal primers are of softer metal for the 'cups'. They require less firing pin pressure to fire, but tend to crumple in the automated seating process. (Work okay in hand priming devices.)
Click to expand...

I know that for me, I have my 550 set up for small primers, bar and primer tube are all correct (to make 100% sure, I just went downstairs and checked it again, LOL).
 
that looks like same thing you do when you want to empty the last bit of primers when finished or changing over? Have done that many times and never noticed anything off but can do that again tonight and watch a bunch just to make sure.
Click to expand...

It is, if they won’t mess up just running them through, the feed system isn’t the problem area.

The folks talking about presses other than the 650 might not understand it’s primer feed system is unique. All of the other Dillon’s use the plastic tip on the left, the 650 uses the brass one on the right.

F45E9F87-9B89-440B-A0AD-C9C0623FCFF2.jpeg

There is no spring loaded cup like the others use either so the tolerance between the disk and tube are small. 23464208-12D7-4818-9100-9B3578118BCF.jpeg 97662A2B-6C71-4542-B3C7-44F74A2B6F2F.jpeg
So small, in fact that it is impossible for the primers to come out sideways, they have to be made that way after they come out of the #2 locator. There is just no room for that maneuver.

057D9AB8-3122-4E29-99B8-9685D6B03D6E.jpeg

Others can do it because when the ram goes up they have all the room for the plastic lips to allow one out not flat.
 
Last edited:
And I thought I was the only one who had tried putting them in sideways.;)
(Lee hand primer)
For some reason they just don't seem to work well that way. (or upside down for that matter)

Problem with the Lee primer is once you start them that way you have to smash the to get the case out of the shell holder.
So far never had one pop, even though I have had to really smash some of them.
 
Dillon has an alignment tool for the primer seater, however my first suspect would be the vibra prime.
 
Could the primer seater ram or the seater assembly itself not be flush with the table under the disk?

Try removing the seater assembly, inspecting it to make sure its in good shape, then clean and reinstall. Its not the easiest part of the press to inspect, but its in the right place to be causing your issue.
 
Last edited:
I've seen that happen on my 550s.
My cure was to thoroughly clean the Primer Slide Assembly.
Even a spec of debris around the outer edge can hold the primer from seating flat
 
FWIW, sideways primers also happen at the factory, even though it shouldn't be possible. It just doesn't happen very often.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
Dillon SDB primer feeding issues
Replies
12
Views
2K
Jimbo53
J
M
  • Locked
Lead Loadmaster primer feeder troubles
Replies
4
Views
697
Uniquedot
U
9
  • Locked
Goofy Federal primer boxes
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
Certaindeaf
C
R
  • Locked
primer mechanism jamming on 650
Replies
1
Views
463
Master Blaster
Master Blaster
Olympus
  • Locked
Lyman All-American 8 - Review after 6 Months
Replies
7
Views
6K
Olympus
Olympus
Back
Top