70-grain TSX?

Safton · Apr 10, 2020

So as I posted in a previous thread, I'm planning on getting into hunting once the current crisis is over with. I'll primarily be going after hogs, but coyotes and whitetail are a possibility as well. On recommendations from the aforementioned thread, I'm going to be using my Daniel Defense M4 in 5.56.

I plan to eat anything I shoot (except for the yotes), so I'd like a lead-free expanding bullet. After some research into the matter, I'm looking primarily at the 70-grain TSX -- preferably the hot VOR-TX loading from Barnes. It has a low expansion threshold, my rifle has the twist rate to stabilize it, and it's a lot less expensive than my previous choice. Plus I like the idea of the extra penetration it offers.

However, before I pull the trigger (no pun intended), I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the round you'd be willing to share? I've heard great things from hunters on other sites along with some anecdotal testaments to its lethality in military use over the last decade or so, but I'd like as much data as possible.

jmr40 · Apr 10, 2020

The bullet LENGTH is what determines best twist rate. Generally speaking heavier is longer, but copper is lighter than lead. A 70 gr copper bullet is going to be a lot longer than a 70 gr lead bullet. If your rifles twist rate is fine for 70 gr lead it might not be suitable for 70 gr copper.

And the general thinking with copper is that you drop down 1-2 bullet weights lighter than normal and shoot it as fast as possible for best hunting results. The standard 55 gr TTSX has shown that it works just fine on deer size game. It will still give you more penetration than you'd likely get with a 60-70 gr lead bullet, it should expand as long as impact speeds are above 2000-2200 fps and it is unlikely that it will come apart at any speed.

The reasoning behind going lighter is twofold. Copper needs faster impact speeds to expand. Below a certain level they act like FMJ. It is harder to get the heavier bullets moving fast enough to ensure expansion except at close ranges. Lead based bullets almost always lose bullet weight at impact. A 70 gr lead bullet will normally weigh 30-50 gr after impact. A 55 gr copper bullet will almost always retain 100% of its weight and will end up heavier than a lead based bullet. A 55 gr copper bullet will usually penetrate deeper than a 60-70 gr lead bullet.

FL-NC · Apr 10, 2020

The TSX rounds came into use in the military after I left- all of my experience was with the 77 grain black hills MK 262 and the Hornady 75 grain BTHP, and of course with the standard rounds like M855 and M193. However, many of my friends who are still in the mix have good things to say about the copper TSX rounds, both in accuracy and terminal performance. FYI, the military barrels are 1:7, and either 14.5" or 10", depending on what the user has set up.

H&Hhunter · Apr 10, 2020

I am confused as to why lead bullets are somehow dangerous the consumer of an animal that’s been killed with one.

Safton · Apr 10, 2020

jmr40 said:
The bullet LENGTH is what determines best twist rate. Generally speaking heavier is longer, but copper is lighter than lead. A 70 gr copper bullet is going to be a lot longer than a 70 gr lead bullet. If your rifles twist rate is fine for 70 gr lead it might not be suitable for 70 gr copper.

And the general thinking with copper is that you drop down 1-2 bullet weights lighter than normal and shoot it as fast as possible for best hunting results. The standard 55 gr TTSX has shown that it works just fine on deer size game. It will still give you more penetration than you'd likely get with a 60-70 gr lead bullet, it should expand as long as impact speeds are above 2000-2200 fps and it is unlikely that it will come apart at any speed.

The reasoning behind going lighter is twofold. Copper needs faster impact speeds to expand. Below a certain level they act like FMJ. It is harder to get the heavier bullets moving fast enough to ensure expansion except at close ranges. Lead based bullets almost always lose bullet weight at impact. A 70 gr lead bullet will normally weigh 30-50 gr after impact. A 55 gr copper bullet will almost always retain 100% of its weight and will end up heavier than a lead based bullet. A 55 gr copper bullet will usually penetrate deeper than a 60-70 gr lead bullet.

Yup, I know. My rifle has a 1:7 twist. It'll be fine with the 1.04" OAL of the 70-grain.

As I recall, the expansion threshold with the lighter TSXs (save the proprietary BH 50-grain) is 1900 feet per second. The 70-grain is supposedly closer to 1800 and its BC allows it to bleed velocity more slowly as it travels downrange. All of the tests I've seen show the 70-grain expanding to roughly the same diameter as its smaller cousins, but it almost always penetrates more deeply.

H&Hhunter said:
I am confused as to why lead bullets are somehow dangerous the consumer of an animal that’s been killed with one.

It's probably not, though I've seen studies suggesting it might be. It's more of a peace of mind thing for me.

H&Hhunter · Apr 10, 2020

Safton said:
Yup, I know. My rifle has a 1:7 twist. It'll be fine with the 1.04" OAL of the 70-grain.

As I recall, the expansion threshold with the lighter TSXs (save the proprietary BH 50-grain) is 1900 feet per second. The 70-grain is supposedly closer to 1800 and its BC allows it to bleed velocity more slowly as it travels downrange. All of the tests I've seen show the 70-grain expanding to roughly the same diameter as its smaller cousins, but it almost always penetrates more deeply.

It's probably not, though I've seen studies suggesting it might be. It's more of a peace of mind thing for me.

Shoot what you want, but lead bullets are not a health issue to the consumer of the meat.

Safton · Apr 10, 2020

H&Hhunter said:
Shoot what you want, but lead bullets are not a health issue to the consumer of the meat.

Like I said, I don't doubt it. But I'd rather be safe than sorry and this would cover me in the event my state follows California in requiring non-toxic hunting ammo... and I just really like the monolithics

H&Hhunter · Apr 10, 2020

Safton said:
Like I said, I don't doubt it. But I'd rather be safe than sorry and this would cover me in the event my state follows California in requiring non-toxic hunting ammo... and I just really like the monolithics

If I were going to shoot TSX out of my LMT CQB 16” I think I’d go with the 62 Gr version. A bit more velocity and about the same terminal performance. My 1 in 7 twist barrel really likes 62 grain pills. I like your thinking on bullet choice for .22 CF on big game, a sturdy bullet with some weight just makes sense.

Safton · Apr 10, 2020

H&Hhunter said:
If I were going to shoot TSX out of my LMT CQB 16” I think I’d go with the 62 Gr version. A bit more velocity and about the same terminal performance. My 1 in 7 twist barrel really likes 62 grain pills. I like your thinking on bullet choice for .22 CF on big game, a sturdy bullet with some weight just makes sense.

Yeah, the 62-grain was/is my second choice for sure. What I've managed to dig up through Googling and asking around on other sites, the two rounds seem pretty comparable aside from some slightly deeper penetration with the 70. Some say the 62 does a better job in terms of lethality, some say the 70. I imagine there's no big difference overall. If I have any accuracy issues with the 70-grain, I won't think twice about trying the 62 out next. Barnes loads their 70-grain pretty hot which I like.

courtgreene · Apr 10, 2020

It’s 8/7000 of a pound. So, no, not a huge difference. That said, I use the 62gr tsx in my .223 on deer (when I use .223) and it works fine. The last doe it killed was shot from the top down right beside the spine and dropped where she stood. Exited the chest through the sternum.
I generally don’t use that rifle for deer hunting, because I have others that I prefer, but if you’re teaching a young person with a small build the adjustable stocks on ar15s are PERFECT. ‘’Twas said young person that took the less than ideal shot.
Right after that deer dropped, he said “are you going to shoot the other one?” His head was blocking it and I never knew she was there. I did with a mosin-nagant, using interlocks. Mine ran 100 yards.
The moral of this story, you can’t predict what any deer does after the shot. Your chosen rounds will work perfectly fine. Hunt responsibly and be safe.

Panfisher · Apr 11, 2020

I have taken a few deer with 55 grain TSX and they worked winderfully, easily punching all they way through. Personally the 62 grain would be the heaviest I would go, the TSX bullets thrive on velocity, so a little lighter weight and move them faster and they are deadly. Have heard that some people have accurate y issues with them but every caliber I used them is they loved them. My AR is a Rem R15 .223 stamped and 1:9 twist. Shoots them wonderfully well. If they weren't so expensive I would load them for general use, but they are so generic 55 HP get general duty use, I have never loaded or used FMJs.

Safton · Apr 11, 2020

Panfisher said:
I have taken a few deer with 55 grain TSX and they worked winderfully, easily punching all they way through. Personally the 62 grain would be the heaviest I would go, the TSX bullets thrive on velocity, so a little lighter weight and move them faster and they are deadly. Have heard that some people have accurate y issues with them but every caliber I used them is they loved them. My AR is a Rem R15 .223 stamped and 1:9 twist. Shoots them wonderfully well. If they weren't so expensive I would load them for general use, but they are so generic 55 HP get general duty use, I have never loaded or used FMJs.

Normally I'd agree and the 62 was a strong contender for me. But for whatever reason the light and fast rule with TSX seems to differ in .223. The 70-grains actually expand at a lower velocity than the others and seem to still open up right after impact and to the same diameter.

That said, I've seen some argue that the higher impact velocity of the lightweights might have some kind of positive effect on incapacitation via "energy dump".

courtgreene · Apr 11, 2020

Yeah pick your idea and someone’s arguing it somewhere. I think they’re great bullets whatever weight you load/use. What you feel confident using is what matters.

70-grain TSX?

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