As seen here, some people can be hard to stop.
- Thread starter CDW4ME
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That.
Another of my philosophies: "Bad" people (criminals/psychopaths) are mobile, not completely nocturnal and may bring a friend(s).
wagonburner
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Excellent response. I’m on the same page as you.
I’m not a cop, I’m not a liquor store clerk. The videos show scenarios that simply cannot ever apply to me. An absolute impossibility.
I don’t prepare for a fictional scenario, I prepare for the realities of my life. I just smh when people insist on giving advice when they don’t know the first thing about me.
wagonburner
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Yep.
"The average Joe" rarely has to use a firearm. That is true for police officers, also.
But there is no reason to expect a civilian incident to differ in substance from the scenario shown, if one accepts that a civilian may intervene to defend a third party.
I would likely not choose to do so. But had that man attached me with a firearm, I cannot see why the scenario would unfold differently.
I do not carry to feel secure.
I carry what I hope will work, but I cannot be certain.
C-grunt
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From my experience guys, especially ones on drugs, will take multiple handgun rounds and be mobile for a while. Unless the high CNS is severed.
I disagree that the video shown is an anomaly. I wouldn't say it's the reaction a majority of the time, but it's definitely somewhat common.
I disagree that the video shown is an anomaly. I wouldn't say it's the reaction a majority of the time, but it's definitely somewhat common.
I do not know why anyone would assume that it is.
C-grunt
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There is a reason why the failure to stop drills were thought up and are taught by dudes who've been in gunfights. It isn't because this reaction to handgun rounds is rare.
wagonburner
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Whatever ...
That can also be said for defensive training focussed on firing rapidly, and training to fire until the threat goes down.
Pudge
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My bad. I was responding to the content of a post on a forum, but in revisiting what I wrote, it sure does read like I'm preaching to you. Not what I intended, sorry.
Excellent response. 1. I’m on the same page as you.
2. I’m not a cop, I’m not a liquor store clerk. The videos show scenarios that simply cannot ever apply to me. An absolute impossibility.
I don’t prepare for a fictional scenario, I prepare for the realities of my life. I just smh when people insist on giving advice when they don’t know the first thing about me.
Thanks, but #1 and #2 are contradictory.
Surely, statement #2 is just messing with me.
If one watches those videos and concludes that since they are not a cop or don't work in a liquor store that encountering someone(s) hard to stop doesn't apply to them, I'd be wasting my time typing words. May as well try to teach my English Bulldog to swim, pointless since he physically can't swim.
Actually, the comment was not about whether the scenarios would "apply".
The statement was that it would be "physically impossible".
Perhaps the poster will never enter a store a the time of a robbery. Perhaps the poster will never intervene to defend a third person.
But it would take a great lack of deductive reasoning to believe those comments pertinent to the thread.
Denialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
Carrying something minimal like a pocket 380 is understandable if limited by work attire, "best one can do" - I've been there and wasn't content with it.
best one can do =/= best one is willing to do
When one is not limited by work attire, some intentionally limit their carry, unwilling to "dress around" a larger pistol or expend the effort of putting on a holster.
They justify/rationalize a minimal gun like a pocket 380 as sufficient for protecting them in the "good" area where they are doing whatever.
"Anticipated threat" in the "good" area is conveniently envisioned as a solo undetermined anemic attacker that runs away at the sight of a gun.
To entertain the idea that an armed attacker (much less 2 of them) like in the videos might be encountered might make one consider carrying "more".
Nah. Nope. That aint likely to happen [insert additional rationalization(s)] Thanks, denialism; pocket gun it is.
GBExpat
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Love that!
"You talkin' to me?"
By carrying a glock, attending a few training seminars, and carrying 6 extra mags everywhere you go, all the time.
Such incidents will never happen to the average citizen. Support Uncle Joe's 5 is Enough Bandwagon.
I do disagree with something from the video. I think the officer should have fired earlier in a controlled manner. He let the bad guy approach the victim way to closely after warning him.
The lack of a controlled failure to stop approach is also apparent. Hate to criticize as I wasn't there and I'm not a LEO but that's my take.
I do disagree with something from the video. I think the officer should have fired earlier in a controlled manner. He let the bad guy approach the victim way to closely after warning him.
The lack of a controlled failure to stop approach is also apparent. Hate to criticize as I wasn't there and I'm not a LEO but that's my take.
buck460XVR
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As I said in my first post, the hand with the gun never came up after the initial volley. It seemed the perp grabbed at the arm with the gun after the first shots were fired as if that arm was hit. It also appeared later on, the perp tried to reach for the gun in his left hand with his right hand and could not do it. He appeared to be dazed and quickly going into Hypovolemic shock, again, a dead man walking. I understand the cop in the heat of the confrontation, continuing to shoot. I did not see the sense of the last two shots as the perp was on the ground laying on the ground....completely still.
Again my statement was "Police shootings and the average SD shooting are very different scenarios". A generic statement about police shootings vs the average SD shootings. But, since you asked. What didn't apply in the video, was that the officer knew in advance that there was a rape in progress and there was a man with a gun, at that particular place, that was the threat. The cop was also wearing body armor and had driven a ways to get there and had time to think what his first move would be. None of what, one would have, in a average civilian SD scenario. The fact that he ignored the victim and retreated, putting the victim directly in the line of active fire from both sources is probably not something I would have done. I probably would have tried to get the victim up and behind cover with me, as it seemed in the tape, there was time initially to do so. I also probably would have gone to the other side of the car or the corner of the building for initial cover, giving me a more direct line of fire to the perp and not having to shoot directly over the victim, who could have attempted to stand at any time. IMHO, the average civilian, under that much stress, is not going to be able to put that many shots, that quickly, safely past the victim. I also wonder, if it were to be determined that one of those last two shots, with the perp lying on his back on the ground, were the killing shot, and the scenario recorded as it was, if it wouldn't have led to issue with a civilian SD shoot.
All of this is moot. We all have the advantage of watching the scenario unfold while sitting safely at our computer. We can boast about how we would have done it or we can chastise others for their own opinion. We can claim a bigger gun with more bullets would have been better or claim that one, better placed bullet to the CNS, even with a micro-caliber, would have done the job quicker and safer. But, we'll never know., because all of it is speculation and....opinion.
I attempted to prevent that drift in the OP - but (as expected) it happens anyway.
Either video illustrates that some people do not quit and can be hard to stop, what the cop did or whether it occurred at a liquor store is irrelevant to "hard to stop".
One can watch those videos and rationalize it as doesn't apply to them because not a cop or don't work in a liquor store. Oh well, I tried.
However one might generalize that if they had to defend themself, the attacker(s) regardless of location or time of day, could be hard to stop. Hallelujah, they get it.
Leading to ... Of the concealable guns you own which would you prefer in hand if you had to defend yourself, wherever.
If one had a snub 38 and a Shield 9mm (example), which would they prefer in hand if they had to defend against "hard to stop". Carry preferred one. Main idea of thread.
Do you somehow believe that to be important?
wagonburner
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EDIT : I'm on the same page as you as I am not seeking advice on this thread.
I've stopped much bigger, much stronger and much faster things than the two legged critters in the videos, so I'm pretty comfortable I am set to stop a hairless biped without problem (if I really have no other option).
The question pertaining to high cap, how am I possibly going to get involved in a gunfight? How am I possibly going to face an armed man at my place of work? I simply do not engage in activities or frequent places where that is probable. I do realize that sometimes the seemingly impossible does happen, for example you get hit by a meteor right after you pick up your lottery winnings, so I am quite aware that nothing is really completely impossible. However I'm talking probabilities that for all practical purposes are zero. Getting mauled by a bear or trampled by moose, yes, that is a real possibility for me. Gunfights, especially extended ones … ain't happening.
So should forsake carrying a 357 mag (which in my hands have stopped real large critters) for a high-cap 9mm because a LEO/store owner/cartel sicario/etc. got into an extended gunfight? No, of course I'm not. My needs are very different.
PS. The questions are rhetorical. As you said, "This thread is not me asking for advice". I'm simply sharing an opinion and I understand there will be those who disagree. While I do resent that terribly, I will try to remain civil.
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WrongHanded
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Throwing in my two cents on the liquor store video:
I don't believe the Toolset mattered one bit, because the Mindset and Skillset were obviously lacking. Though I suppose a 12ga might have helped bring swift resolution.
I don't believe the Toolset mattered one bit, because the Mindset and Skillset were obviously lacking. Though I suppose a 12ga might have helped bring swift resolution.
Ah, the new rule, instead of don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things - it is:
I only go to nice places with nice people and do nice things. Thus my gun fights will be nice ones.
What gun for the Care Bears?
I only go to nice places with nice people and do nice things. Thus my gun fights will be nice ones.
What gun for the Care Bears?
That would only tell us that the "average" civilian may have failed and been killed.
Same potential issues in both cases.
First, the stopping of "real large critters" and the stopping of human beings in defensive encounters are not very comparable.
The former requires more penetration, and in many cases, the blood trail is important.. The latter requires a greater rate of controlled fire--and less penetration.
I do not see how your needs, relative to what it might take to stop on violent human being effectively, would necessarily differ from those examples in any substantive way,
wagonburner
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I don't give a hoot what you see it or not.
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