Need advice.. Howa vs Weatherby or Winchester M70?

The Vanguard and Howa have the same action but the Vaguard has a Weatherby barrel. PF vs CF is a debate than's been going on for decades. There are pros and cons to both and I don't want to open that worm can. My personal belief is it doesn't really make any difference unless you're hunting something that can kill you, and then, I'd be tempted to go CF. I doubt you'll find enough of an accuracy difference to matter.

If this is going to be a hunting rifle, I'd buy the one that best fits me and my budget.

Winchester M70 is the only CRF of the 3.

Winchester & Howa have CHF barrels, if that's important to you (I like it.)

EDIT The Vanguard is also CHF after doing a quick bit of research.

What cartridge were you looking for?

burrhead said:

The Vanguard and Howa have the same action but the Vaguard has a Weatherby barrel. PF vs CF is a debate than's been going on for decades. There are pros and cons to both and I don't want to open that worm can. My personal belief is it doesn't really make any difference unless you're hunting something that can kill you, and then, I'd be tempted to go CF. I doubt you'll find enough of an accuracy difference to matter.

If this is going to be a hunting rifle, I'd buy the one that best fits me and my budget.

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I was not aware that Weatherby made the barrels for the Vanguard. I don’t think Weatherby even has that kind of manufacturing capability. Where does this information come from?

I could very well be wrong about the barrel issue. I got that off a predator forum and it stuck in my head. Likely not true.

These are all well established and proven actions. I prefer Winchester M70's, they are smooth and slick actions, never owned a Howa or Weatherby, but handled them. Decide if you like the bolt lift, if your fingers clear the scope when holding the bolt, the stock fit, and trigger pull. I like a floor plate, those have a habit of disappearing on some models.

burrhead said:

I could very well be wrong about the barrel issue. I got that off a predator forum and it stuck in my head. Likely not true.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherby#Rifles

Not that Wikipedia is the be all and end all of facts, but the Weatherby operation in Sheridan is pretty small and as far as I know, they don't manufacture anything, although I believe Mark V final assembly is done in-house. The Vanguard is entirely contract manufactured by Howa and is exactly the same as the 1500 but for the stock.

OP, the Mauser M18 (Not a 98 CRF action) is available in 6.5 CM for $399. Would add that to the list.

I suspect it’s more a Chevy/Ford//Dodge dilemma. There is no right versus wrong

well, actually the correct answer is Jeep, but that’s a different discussion

One thing to look at is the stock design. The Vanguard shares a similar design as the Mark V. The design helps in eating up recoil.
The Vanguard and Howa are made by Howa. The Vanguard has to meet the accuracy requirements of Weatherby but both are very accurate out of the box, equal to the Mark V.

I have owned only one model 70. It was the
Classic pre 64 remake from the late 1990s before Winchester joined the same group as Browning. It did not make my personal accuracy requirements and was traded off for a Browning.

Weatherby buys their actions from Howa to build the Vanguard. The barrels and stocks are somewhat different, but they are the same basic rifle. Depending on exactly which version you choose sometimes Vanguard is cheaper, sometimes Howa is cheaper. Both companies offer multiple configurations of the rifles. I'd choose the one I liked and not worry too much if it had Howa or Weatherby stamped on the receiver.

They solid, dependable, and usually accurate rifles, but I just don't like the design. They are both heavier than they need to be for a hunting rifle.

PF vs CRF.

For most people, most of the time it doesn't matter. I have a preference for CRF, but have both types of rifles. CRF is a more simple, rugged, foolproof system that will continue to function in harsh conditions. Mud, ice, snow, sand, and dust in the action are more likely to cause a PF rifle to fail to operate than CRF. And it has nothing to do with "FEEDING" rounds from the magazine into the chamber. Both do that equally well. CRF's advantage is much more reliable extraction and ejection when the rifle is filthy. Kept reasonably clean it doesn't matter. For hunting in the harshest conditions in wilderness areas far from a road and any possibility of properly taking the rifle apart for a thorough cleaning I prefer CRF.

I like Winchester and Kimber for their CRF actions, but the Ruger Hawkeye uses CRF as well and if anything is probably more rugged and reliable than Winchester if that is important. To me the classic looks of the CRF rifles is a selling point, but that is personal preference. There are very good rifles using both systems.

Knowing more about what you want to do with it, what will you hunt, where, and how much do you want to spend helps with advice. Is extreme accuracy more important, or is extreme reliability? Will you hunt in steep rugged terrain where rifle weight is a concern? What cartridge are you considering? A magnum cartridge would benefit from a little heavier rifle.

I prefer CRF until I try and single-load at the range. Then it's a PITA

New winchester mdl. 70’s can single load just fine. Even if they couldn’t, is it really a “pita” to push the shell into the magazine first?

I'm a Winchester fanboy based on my experience with three M70s...2 Extreme Weathers in .30-06 and 7mm RM and one in 7x57 (aka .275 Rigby). The first two are 0.75 MOA off the bench while the 7x57 has produced 0.5 MOA groups with my handloads. The modern version of the pre-'64 CRF action is wonderful and, IMO, highly desirable for assuring the ability to get off a quick follow-up shot to avoid having to track wounded game. I also have a Ruger 77 African in 6.5x55SE with Ruger's CRF that is a 0.75-1 MOA shooter off the bench. Both Winnies and Rugers have 3 position safeties, a feature I find highly desirable. For both, loading rounds into the magazine is trivial compared to dropping a round onto the mag follower. I have fired Howa/W'by Vanguards and found them to be excellent rifles at an excellent price point. While I prefer the CRF for hunting rifles, IMO you can't go wrong with any of the 4 brands I've noted. I would also suggest that all four provide more than sufficient accuracy for any hunting challenge on Deer, most Black Bears, Sheep, Speed Goats, and Elk, all of which have vitals that are 9"-18" in diameter.

Good luck and good hunting,

It could be just in my head but it seems to me Vanguards have better fit and finish than Howa 1500’s. We have a number of Vanguards in the family and I have zero complaints. When it comes to customer service, unless things have changed I’d MUCH rather deal with Weatherby than Legacy Sports.

At the end of the day though I’d rather have a M70 than a Vanguard.

You can order ammo online in most of NY. Try targetsportsusa.com they'll ship to you if you're upstate at least for sure. Don't know much about downstate.

Odessit86 said:

7x57 Did you mean Mauser ??? I had Zastava M24/47 in a past in 8mm Mauser ... In NY state this ammo very RARE and because of ridiculous rules of NY state i cannot order online them...
You loading yourself ..?

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Yes, 7x57 is the same as 7mm Mauser and is the same as the British-named .275 Rigby. I got a kick out of buying a box of .275 Rigby brass just to take to the range and blow minds (I also am keeping my eyes open for a Ruger African in .275 Rigby to go with my Ruger African 6.5x55SE aka 6.5mm Swedish Mauser). You can ask your LGS to order you some PPU brand ammo...it's cheap, well-made, and accurate. I have been a hand loader since 1978. Some days I don't know whether I reload to shoot or shoot to reload. The challenge of crafting the most accurate loads for each of my rifles is a good part of my enjoyment of the shooting hobby.

Being from NY (hence the name), I feel your pain. I moved west in 1989 and haven't looked back. The Rockies are a nice view from my patio and I live 400 yards from Cherry Creek State Park, a 3,346 acre park that I spend a good 25% of my time in. One of the nice things about CCSP compared to Central Park in NYC is that we have no muggers here.

Cheers, and good shooting,

Haven't had a chance to take a look at a Winchester, but I have had some time with Howas, and I like them. I was hoping to get a barreled action on sale from Brownells but I was a day late and a dollar short for the deals they were having in the past. I also have one of the Howa mini actions, and that is a fun little rifle too.

Alaskan Ironworker said:

New winchester mdl. 70’s can single load just fine. Even if they couldn’t, is it really a “pita” to push the shell into the magazine first?

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Yes, when all your other rifles are push feed, you only have to forget once. Then you'd better have a cleaning rod handy or it's get the pliers out and unscrew the damn truck antenna to push the round out. LOL

mdThanatos said:

Haven't had a chance to take a look at a Winchester, but I have had some time with Howas, and I like them. I was hoping to get a barreled action on sale from Brownells but I was a day late and a dollar short for the deals they were having in the past. I also have one of the Howa mini actions, and that is a fun little rifle too.

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I've gone to all Howa rifles in my house (cept for my beloved pre-64 Win of course). My Howa Alpine even replaced my stainless Tikka T3 that I swore I'd never part with. My Howa Mini's (7.62x39 and 6.5 Grendel) are consistently the most accurate rifles I've ever owned. Got both of them as barreled actions from Brownells and should have bought 10 at the price I paid for them.

I suppose thats a valid argument

Most accurate gun I ever owned was a Winchester Model 70.

Newtosavage said:

Yes, when all your other rifles are push feed, you only have to forget once. Then you'd better have a cleaning rod handy or it's get the pliers out and unscrew the damn truck antenna to push the round out. LOL

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push thr extractor towards the bolt about1/2 way back. It will flex the extractor out allowing it to jump the rim.