Red Dots

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TonyAngel

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Man, I've been shopping for red dots today. I've finally accepted that my eyes aren't just aging, they have aged. As some of you may have read, I'm a big fan of and have been running 1.5X Trijicon TA44 ACOGs. For a long time, that little extra .5X helped enough, but it's come to the time when it just isn't enough.

I'm exploring a couple of options. The first of which is a low power variable. I just got my hands on a Vortex PST 1-4X and I'm gonna give that a try. I was also thinking that when using a low power variable, I almost never run the in between magnification settings. I'm either at 1X or dialed to 3 or 4X, so why not a red dot with a magnifier?

So...I've been shopping for a red dot. I really do like and have been a long time proponent of Aimpoints. Clean dots and about as bullet proof as you can get for a red dot, but I thought I'd better look around and see what's out there. I like to keep an open mind. I did a bit of research on Aimpoint T2 vs ?, just to see what people were comparing the T2 to.

I've gotta tell you, I didn't get an Aimpoint. I hope I didn't make a mistake, but I ordered a Romeo 4T. For the price, though not as pricey as the T2, it has a lot to offer.

Have any of you had experience with this red dot? I've run plenty of Romeo 5s. It seems that everyone has one, but never the 4T.
 
exploring a couple of options. The first of which is a low power variable
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I've tried really hard to like dot sights but keep coming back to low powered variables. Something 1-4X, 1.5-4X, or 1-6X just works a LOT better for me. On the lowest setting I give up nothing in speed of getting on target at close range compared to a dot sight. If you stay with a 1" tube they aren't significantly larger of heavier than a dot sight. And the option of moving up to 4X or 6X gives me the versatility to take accurate shots at 400-600 yards.

My complaints are two fold. #1 is the coarse adjustment. Most of them have a dot that covers 2-4" of the target at 100 yards. And each click moves the dot 1/2 to 1" making precise zeroing impossible.

The 2nd complaint is the poor optics. I've never used one that was clear and sharp. The light transmission in poor light is bad as well. You can often see the dot, but not the target. That sorta defeats the purpose.

I guess cost vs performance is another. I can buy a 1-4X20 scope for under $200 that is optically far superior to any dot sight priced under $500. I've killed deer 30 minutes before sunrise and had no trouble seeing it with such scopes. Would have never been able to take the shot with any dot sight I've ever owned.

And if you just have to have the dot, there are several options for conventional 1-4X scopes where at least part of the reticle will light up. I have one, but can't imagine a scenario where having the reticle lit up will be an advantage. And I can still use it with a dead battery.
 
jmr40 said:
I've tried really hard to like dot sights but keep coming back to low powered variables. Something 1-4X, 1.5-4X, or 1-6X just works a LOT better for me. On the lowest setting I give up nothing in speed of getting on target at close range compared to a dot sight. If you stay with a 1" tube they aren't significantly larger of heavier than a dot sight. And the option of moving up to 4X or 6X gives me the versatility to take accurate shots at 400-600 yards.

My complaints are two fold. #1 is the coarse adjustment. Most of them have a dot that covers 2-4" of the target at 100 yards. And each click moves the dot 1/2 to 1" making precise zeroing impossible.

The 2nd complaint is the poor optics. I've never used one that was clear and sharp. The light transmission in poor light is bad as well. You can often see the dot, but not the target. That sorta defeats the purpose.

I guess cost vs performance is another. I can buy a 1-4X20 scope for under $200 that is optically far superior to any dot sight priced under $500. I've killed deer 30 minutes before sunrise and had no trouble seeing it with such scopes. Would have never been able to take the shot with any dot sight I've ever owned.

And if you just have to have the dot, there are several options for conventional 1-4X scopes where at least part of the reticle will light up. I have one, but can't imagine a scenario where having the reticle lit up will be an advantage. And I can still use it with a dead battery.
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I've thought about the use of the illuminated ones too and I figure it might be helpful in low light likening you're hunting coyotes a little after sundown or by moonlight. Hard to see your reticle in those conditions even if you can see the target.
 
jmr40 said:
I've tried really hard to like dot sights but keep coming back to low powered variables.
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Funny, my experience is the exact opposite. I've really tried to like LPVOs, but I keep coming back to red dots (or EOTechs). Since none of us are snipers anymore, I just can't see the need for magnification on an AR used for either recreation or defensive purposes, especially within 150 yards. I'm a huge fan of Aimpoint products (use 'em at work) but having T&E'ed the SIG Romeo offerings (sadly for only one range day), they seemed pretty good. The reports on the Romeo's durability are encouraging. I like the circle-dot reticle of the 4T and its compactness.

Interested to hear your feedback after you've shot with it a bit.
 
I've never been a big fan of magnifiers. If I want magnification I like a 1-4x scope.
 
My main problem with a magnifier is that it also increases the size of the dot, so you really aren't gaining any more usable precision. If you don't need/want magnification, a red dot makes alot of sense. If you need more precision than that provides, IMO a LPVO makes more sense. With that being the case, my AR wears a 1-6x LPVO.

That being said, if you primarily want the "no need to worry about an eyebox" aspect of the red dot and want a magnifier for a rare instance where you want to see something better when you're shooting at it, I guess I can see the benefit.
 
army_eod said:
Primary Arms Prism optics. Check them out.
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I did and not interested. If I was gonna go that route, I would have just gone with a TA33 or something. Those fixed low power scopes just sacrifice too much in terms of field of view. I do keep both eyes open, even when shooting with a magnified optic, but still, I like the field of view.

For those that don't like the lack of precision with a red dot, you're using them wrong. Well, not wrong, but I use them differently. When I zero, I use the very top of the dot, not the whole dot. With a 2MOA dot that should give you more than enough practical accuracy at 100 yards and 50 and still leaves you with the same practical accuracy. Doing this lends itself well to using a magnifier as well. It doesn't much matter to me that the dot gets bigger, so long as everything else does too. It worked for me when I had younger eyes at ranges that I would use an AR for.

I'm looking for some info from some that have hands on experience with the Romeo 4T. Kinda like to know what to expect. I ran some drills with a red dot on top of my 5.56 10.5" AR today. The up close transition coming from an ACOG isn't going to be hard. I had forgotten how fast and forgiving a red dot is up close. I only shot out to 50 yards today. The range was really crowded. I'm gonna hit it again tomorrow. If it's less crowded I'm gonna try to set up targets at 25, 50 and 75 and see how that goes.
 
Tony,

I hope you are happy with your Romeo. I’ve heard on several places they are basically the same as the Primary Arms house brands, at least on a couple models. I have no way to validate that.

the one thing you said that caught my attention was “I hope I’m not making a mistake but I ordered a Romeo...”

I cannot say if you made a mistake or not...I hope you didn’t. But I can say this with certainty...buying an Aimpoint is NEVER a mistake...they are really that good. I have two PRO’s and they have been outstanding for over 8 years and many thousand rounds without needing to be re-sighted.
 
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I've had a Sig Romeo-MSR 1X20mm compact red dot on a AR-15 that I got at a LGS about a year ago, it is extremely light weight, and has exceptional clarity in just about any light, just before dawn, and shortly after sunset. I don't believe it was very expensive either. In fact I'm aware that they made several upgrades, since I purchased mine. BTW getting it sighted in was really simple and accurate.
 
Buzznrose said:
Tony,

I hope you are happy with your Romeo. I’ve heard on several places they are basically the same as the Primary Arms house brands, at least on a couple models. I have no way to validate that.

the one thing you said that caught my attention was “I hope I’m not making a mistake but I ordered a Romeo...”

I cannot say if you made a mistake or not...I hope you didn’t. But I can say this with certainty...buying an Aimpoint is NEVER a mistake...they are really that good. I have two PRO’s and they have been outstanding for over 8 years and many thousand rounds without needing to be reserved.
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Oh, I hear ya. I first ran Eotechs. I killed so many of those I can't count. I actually think I gave a few of them away here, so that the recipients could get them fixed. Thing was, I really loved the Eotech reticle, but I wanted reliability. I landed on an Aimpoint C3. Then a T1 (actually a couple of these, they became my goto sights), then age kicked in and I went with the TA44 ACOG and I was with that for a LONG time. Almost like a red dot and it had that reticle similar to that of the Eotech.

Now, I'm making another transition and my knee jerk was the just order a T2, but thought I'd check things out. Turns out that the Romeo 4T is really something, at least on paper and according to what I've read. I believe they may be made by the same people doing the Primary Arms, Holosuns, etc., but the T4 is spec'd differently. 7075 instead of 6061, IPX8 water resistance rating (I actually think it surpasses this), and it has that reticle. The circle/dot. 50K to 100K hours of batter life, auto off/shake away feature and, if I'm not mistaken, a lifetime warranty. Honestly, it looks to be build like a tank. No other red dot, save for the Aimpoints, even come close in terms of specs. I'm gonna give it a try. If it bombs, I'll just go back to my T1 while I continue to shop or will probably land on a T2. I found a sale on the 4T and picked it up for $400ish. It was nice not having pay almost twice as much. Selling one of my ACOGs paid for it and some ammo.

The real kicker of all of this is that I've been having a blast shooting with my Bushnell TRS-26. The more I work with it, the more I like it. $129, shipped, directly from Bushnell. LOL I also went and picked up another TRS-25 today for my dad's AR22 build. He's running a scope with a 4 MOA dot and I think it's too big. I tried to give him my TRS26, but he prefers the rotary dial to the push buttons. I have a TRS25 that I've been using for a good ten years and that things is still kicking. I think I paid little more than $60 for that thing. The only downside is the battery life.
 
Well, I got the 1-4X PST. I really loved these little things and have forgotten how nice they are. I rigged up a mount setup to get an idea of how high I need to get it for this pistol...https://photos.app.goo.gl/1wPC3i5x6LtZ87xZ8

This is one nice scope. The 1X is a true 1X, with the exception that it's more like a 1X with your glasses on. LOL. I'd gotten so used to throwing up the ACOG and this thing feels natural when it comes up. I'm gonna get to the range Wednesday and run some drills with it and see how it does.

If I can shoot it at 1X as fast as I could my ACOG, that Romeo 4T is really gonna need to be something special to beat this out.
 
TonyAngel said:
Well, I got the 1-4X PST. I really loved these little things and have forgotten how nice they are. I rigged up a mount setup to get an idea of how high I need to get it for this pistol...https://photos.app.goo.gl/1wPC3i5x6LtZ87xZ8

This is one nice scope. The 1X is a true 1X, with the exception that it's more like a 1X with your glasses on. LOL. I'd gotten so used to throwing up the ACOG and this thing feels natural when it comes up. I'm gonna get to the range Wednesday and run some drills with it and see how it does.

If I can shoot it at 1X as fast as I could my ACOG, that Romeo 4T is really gonna need to be something special to beat this out.
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I've got an older 1-4x PST on my FAL, pretty good scope for the money. I like the "donut of death" in the FFP as it looks like a giant dot when on 1X.

xgt0Dxlh.jpg
 
Chuck R. said:
I've got an older 1-4x PST on my FAL, pretty good scope for the money. I like the "donut of death" in the FFP as it looks like a giant dot when on 1X.

View attachment 913200
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First off that is sexy as hell and I'm jelly.

Second, I think Romeos are made by Holosun?

I like my holosun and romeo optics. simple holosun red dot pairs well with a Samson magnifier.

I think that the Leupold 6x side positioned optic that rides just under the red dot is going to make magnifiers obsolete but I get along pretty well with a 3.5x magnifier behind a dot or Vortex UH1
 
From what I understand, the Romeos are made in a Holosun factory to Sig's specs. I went with the 4T, as an alternative to an Aimpoint or ACOG, because it is spec'd a bit differently from the other 4s and other Romeos for that matter. IPX8 water resistance rating. 20 meters underwater for an hour and 7075, instead of 6061 aluminum. I've gotta say, it does have a very robust feel to it.

I mounted the T4 and took it out today. Ran about 300 rounds doing drills and it confirmed what I felt the other day, after shooting with the 1-4X PST. The PST isn't what I want. The Romeo was fast. Very fast. And, it's a lot lighter. I wish I would have taken my timer with me. I wasn't expecting to have the run of the range today. They usually don't let me do fast double and triple taps when others are there who may follow suit. The new rail, the muzzle brake and the optic came together nicely to make a package that seems like it was made for me. Well, I suppose it was.

Here's Tony's Franken Gun, version 10.0...https://photos.app.goo.gl/tJsEMFB3Aa2CJ5gPA

I had the PST up for sale, but then thought better of it. Now I think I'm gonna put it back up to finance a magnifier when I need help seeing golf balls.
 
1KPerDay said:
That's a slick-looking setup. What AFG is that?
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That the MagPul 1st generation angled forward grip. I didn't like the gen 2. It has this removable finger thingy and I didn't need it. The gen 1 was $10 cheaper, so I went for it.

Get this, apparently, there aren't too many Romeo 4Ts being used by people on forums that I frequent, but I had one guy tell me that he's been running a 4T for a couple of years now and when he pulled the mount to install a QD mount, his was stamped "Made in Japan."

I'm gonna have to pull mine when my MI QD mount gets here, so I'll see.
 
I love red dots. A magnified optic is great for target shooting, hunting and longer range plinking but I don't hunt anymore nor do I get a chance to do much long range stuff. Most of my firearms are set up for closer work and defensive applications. I haven't found any magnified optic that I can afford with an eye box large enough to be practical for CQB/defensive use so it's Aimpoint for me.
 
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