Simple vs. "Modern" Reticles for Self Defense purposes

Yes, you can get a reticle that is too busy. I like a duplex style reticle along with multiple aiming points for longer range use. If it is designed right you don't notice the other aiming points. Especially on a First Focal Plane scope, most of those aren't visible until you move up to 6X or more magnification. The other aiming points aren't necessary for close range quick shooting, but aren't a handicap either.

Something like this

https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-tmr-vx-freedom-203

Isn't going to be anymore of a handicap than this at close range, yet offers some aid for longer shots.

https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-wide-duplex-18

Something like this is too busy and would be a handicap

https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-front-focal-h-37-55

Nearly all my optics from a 1-3x to a my 6.5-20x have some type of ballistic reticle. Some relatively simple just a few range hold over points to a full "christmas-tree" reticle. If, god forbid, I every have to use one of these rifles in self-defense those reticles will make no difference to me. You should have practice enough with what every aiming system you are using that it will be second nature.

For nearly all realistic self-defense scenarios I can think of I will be using the primary aiming-point anyway. The idea of a self-defense situation where I would have to use one of my hold over points seems very far fetched.

I use all 3 types depending on the rifles purpose.

For hunting I prefer a either a simple Leupold Duplex (lower post junction is normally a good 300yd hold) or a BDC type reticle. I have MIL Dots on my target guns, but don't use them on hunting rifles due to the increased weight normally associated with mildots & turrets and decreased ranges in hunting.

IF I was to put together a carbine for SD I'd probably go with the reticle I use for 3Gun, which is the Leupold Firedot BDC:



It's fast in close and I've taken it out to 547yds on 2/3rds IDPA steel at 6X without an issue.

I like Vortex's 1-4x with the illuminated reticle. It's nearly as a good as a red dot at close range while also having the ability to reach out further than a red dot if necessary. The reticle is simple and etched so no worries if the battery dies at a bad time. Probably unrealistic to expect to need magnification on a civilian self defense rifle but it can double down as a self defense and varmint gun.

js8588 said:

When discussing personal defense rifles and scopes, Christmas tree, BDC, ACSS, etc reticles were always recommended.

When talking about hunting say, dangerous game or hogs (still technically dangerous game), a simple, uncluttered German #4 with an illuminated dot or similar (Leupold Firedot duplex, Trijicon illuminated triangle post) is usually considered the go-to.

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Scopes and reticles are a very personal decision, and a lot of personal preference makes it’s way into scope recommendations.

If you’ll allow me to generalize:
Defensive rifles tend to follow military and police trends where longer range engagements are significantly more likely. While MPBR of 5.56 is around 300 yards, a soldier could be called on to make shots out to 500+ yards (think Afghanistan). Quick, *acceptable* accuracy at those ranges is needed, without taking the time to make scope adjustments.

Also consider that most (not all) of the people who prefer working with these types of rifles, even in the civilian word, are interested in the latest and greatest technologies and tactics and are more than willing to make changes to their guns if it gives them an advantage (even a perceived advantage). In general, this also tends to be a younger crowd. This results in the more defensive minded shooter being open to using, and thus recommending, a scope with some sort or BDC.



Dangerous game hunting is generally less concerned with long range shooting (shorter range means better terminal effects) and I would expect most hunters to refuse a shot if it put them outside of their MBPR / comfort zone. This means they don’t really have a use for a scope with drop estimation.

Most dangerous game hunters (again, I’m generalizing here) seem to lean towards the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” side, and are not really interested in chasing the latest and greatest. A simple duplex type reticle worked for them for years, so why bother with something else? And if they already have their equipment, or even if they are in the market for a new scope, why pay more for a fancy reticle that they have never previously needed?

This type of hunting also tends to be a group event where should a dangerous situation arise, there is usually a guide or partner(s) who can help put down a charging animal.

Now, there’s nothing wrong with either of these groups or methodologies, but remember that people tend to recommend what THEY prefer, not necessarily what is best for you and your use. So you get “Tactical” people recommending newer reticle designs which may have BDC, and you get hunting people recommending older reticle designs without a BDC. It could all be due to population selection.

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js8588 said:

I get that Ballistic ranging reticles are useful when shooting for a perfect score to impress your buddies or win a game

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It’s a common misconception, but BDC reticles are actually NOT good for getting a good score or group. To make a very long discussion about comparative ballistics short, unless your rifle and ammunition matches the factory’s test rifle and ammunition EXACTLY, there’s a very high probability that your reticle will not be accurate. And as far as I know, most manufacturers of scopes don’t list the details of what went into their BDC calculation.

So if you have a different cartridge, barrel length, height over bore, bullet weight, bullet type, bullet BC, powder, primer, velocity, temperature, humidity, atmospheric conditions, elevation above sea level... (the list goes on) your bullet will not cross the BDC line at the indicated range. That said, it is an approximation and usually close enough to keep someone’s head down.

Look at it this way, if BDC reticles were great for accuracy at range, PRS shooters would be all over them. Instead, they’re using a variation of mil reticle and dialing for range based on known drop for the conditions.

js8588 said:

When adrenaline is high & your life may be on the line, isn't simple better? Are you really going to remember which hash mark means what at certain (likely at the time, if you're in a situation where it's needed, unknown) distances?

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To wrap up an already overly long post, just because something is more complex doesn’t mean it can’t be effectively used. When under stress, you will default to the habits developed through training and practice. It’s up to you to make sure that you can use your gear effectively.

I started my hunting career many years ago with a East German, Ziess Gena 4x32 scope with the german #1 reticle. Thats the thick post and rail reticle. Shot a lot of deer using that scope. For 30 years i used a Ziess divari 1-6x42 with the german #4 reticle. Shot a lot of deer using that scope. 8 plus years ago i bought a Schmidt & bender Variable scope with flash dot reticle because i thought it was a must have. Big heavy scope that on reflection is too much scope to lug around and makes the rifle top heavy. It is very useful for sitting out at night for boar. One of favorite scopes is a Kahles 2.3-7x32 scope with a German #1 reticle, made in 1976. Its mounted on my combi and still has crystal clear optics.
I did buy a Schmidt and Bender Exos 1-8x24 with FD 0 reticle for my double rifle. Brilliant scope that i used to great affect on driven shoots last season. I did get an amazing deal on that scope and would not have paid the full retail price for it.

Simple is best for most SD purposes. Iron sights work. That is pretty simple. Training is the key.

Also depends on the quality of the optic. Go simple for any budget optic.

A busy Trijicon ACOG reticle is fine. A similar reticle in my Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x is crap. Too thick and mushy. The Trijicon is razor sharp.

Kentucky windage and elevation with irons or a duplex goes a long way.

Self defense? 0 magnification red dot, 99% of the time. Unless you see yourself in a scenario where you may have to deal with a threat at distances over 100 yards. Examples of this would be if you live on a large parcel of open property, and you want to insure that you are ready for any shenanigans that may ensue. Then something like a 1-4, 1-6, 1-8 would be the best choice. If your host rifle is some type of AR or similar rifle, a good set-up would be a RDS that co-witnesses with iron sights. This gives you a backup in the event that your battery has gone dead, or you forgot to or do not have time to turn it on.

Pretty much everything was covered above, sometimes tradition wins out.

And the April Super Fudd Post of the Month Award goes to...

I'm confused.

The thread title references "self defense". Then there is mention of "people" recommending various ballistic reticles. Unless.your cabin is in the middle of say, the Swat Valley, there are no self defense situations which will require, or likely be judged valid after the fact, a long range reticle of any kind.

If one is using a rifle for self defense that also does duty in a.long range role, then one should equip the rifle with optical solutions that address both roles.

My reticles are Duplex, German #4 and Illuminated #4. I prefer German #4 over Duplex except for rimfires.

I don’t target shoot or shoot past 350 yards. If I did I would probably have more sophisticated reticles.

I’d be A-okay with a Zeiss #60.

Home defense: high end red dot on both handguns and shotguns - for me that's exclusively Trijicon RMR.
Hunting: moderate to high end duplex or drop/range estimating reticle. For me that's either Leupold or Zeiss.
Target: mixed bag of low to high end red dots and optics.

The best reticle for self defense is the one of top of the gun you're holding when you need it.

If you're talking about being prepared for an up close and personal encounter, nothing faster or more precise than open sights, if you can use them. Optics are like open sights in that you have to practice/train to be able to use either. If you just have to have an optic and want fast, stick with a simple red dot. I mean, we are talking about self defense, right? Something happening within 7 yards that you'll be using a rifle to take care of?

A friend has an AUG with the original 1.5X ring reticle that works very well.
I don't know the current crop, but I would think of a red dot over a coarse real reticle in case my battery ran down.

js8588 said:

I freely admit, I'm new to the optics game. As per my recent post, I only just bought my first scope.

A big part of that is because of analysis paralysis brought on by the myriad of choices in brands, magnification ranges and reticles.

I've read a LOT of forum posts, articles, and watched literally hours worth of YouTube videos on the topic.

I noticed an interesting trend.

When discussing personal defense rifles and scopes, Christmas tree, BDC, ACSS, etc reticles were always recommended.

When talking about hunting say, dangerous game or hogs (still technically dangerous game), a simple, uncluttered German #4 with an illuminated dot or similar (Leupold Firedot duplex, Trijicon illuminated triangle post) is usually considered the go-to.

Sense where I'm going with this?

I get that Ballistic ranging reticles are useful when shooting for a perfect score to impress your buddies or win a game, but if needed for personal defense, wouldn't the same concepts apply as those when hunting something that could injure/kill you?

Red dot sights are considered useful to 200 yards+ (probably because 55-69gr 5.56 ammo basically has a 300ish yard mpbr).

LPVOs are popular because they work like red-dots with some additional magnification.

When adrenaline is high & your life may be on the line, isn't simple better? Are you really going to remember which hash mark means what at certain (likely at the time, if you're in a situation where it's needed, unknown) distances?

Am I missing something?

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For practical self defense the circle dots and triangle dots make sense, big reticle for "oh no!" up close, little dot for "precise work". Past that, not sure the lawyers can help ?

This sounds like...I’m confused because I watched 4 hours of tactical YouTube vids.

Self defense reticles are irons or red dots. Distance shooting=BDC And/or advanced reticles.

There can be a cross between the two. Like an ACOG. Or, in my case I have a 2-10 viper gen II on my 300 BLK. I can do both but not as well as irons or a red dot.

Less is more in self defense. It will likely be very close range. I have a 1.5-4 Leo on my 375 H&H with a simple reticle. Why? When a Griz is running at me I don’t need a cluttered reticle, and it will likely be a close shot. I don’t need a BDC or turrets in this situation.

All the long range stuff = weight as well. When, in my definition of self defense and it’s close range, I want light and something I can easily shoot off hand.