Wadcutters for self defense loads?

WHM1974 brought up the point regarding legality of using reloads for defense. Is that still an issue?

Solid wadcutters can be loaded a bit hotter than hollow base wadcutters but as already mentioned, fast reloading of the revolver with wadcutter bullets can be an issue. Also, there is a concern by some of using reloads for self defense.

Personally, I load 158 grain semi-wadcutters for my 38 Special j-frames. Reloading the gun is a but easier due to the nose of the SWC bullets and the effect is similar to wadcutters.

My j-frames that are used for self defense are cut for moon clips.

MI2600 said:

WHM1974 brought up the point regarding legality of using reloads for defense. Is that still an issue?

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IMO it depends on where you live. Here in southern Kansas the juries lean heavily on the side of the gunowner. If I lived in an area over run with liberals (God forbid) I would only carry factory. I know Massad Ayoob says to only carry factory, but he's entitled to his opinion. Let's not turn this thread away from the question posted by the OP, I don't want it to turn ugly.

whm1974 said:

Where is the link to the article?

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Hmmm. It did not magically appear!!

Try this one.

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

Thanks for pointing it out!

Kevin

cfullgraf said:

...as already mentioned, fast reloading of the revolver with wadcutter bullets can be an issue...

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Novel idea, load the revolver with the wadcutters have SSC, RN or whatever you choose in your reload.

I competed in PPC. We practiced reloading with WC bullets a lot. Most competitors could reload with their eyes closed as fast as they could with RN.

Kevin

StrawHat said:

Novel idea, load the revolver with the wadcutters have SSC, RN or whatever you choose in your reload.

I competed in PPC. We practiced reloading with WC bullets a lot. Most competitors could reload with their eyes closed as fast as they could with RN.

Kevin

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I have shoot PPC, it's fun but the times for strings is so long I could have, with a little practice, probably loaded lose ammunition from a dump pouch fast enough to finish the strings. PPC it's not very demanding on reload speed IMHO. It also does not require movement while reloading.

mcb, you haven’t shot ppc in a while.

At 7 and 15yds, 12 shots in 20 seconds sounds generous, but anything less than a 240/240 is a bust (high master class).
They don’t call it “combat bullseye” without reason.
2008 was the last time I was able to clean Match 1 with either revolver or semiauto.
My 480/480-43x in 1998 hasn’t been topped yet. (Off duty revolver National Record).
Due to league matches cancellation, this is the first season I’ve missed since 1989.

I wouldn’t load target Wadcutters for self defense, but a double end cast wadcutter at top published non-+P loads would be hard to beat. A de-wadcutter at 750fps from a 2” gun would work just as well as anything at 0-7yds. I would however have round flat nose loaded in the speedloader.

GooseGestapo said:

mcb, you haven’t shot ppc in a while.

At 7 and 15yds, 12 shots in 20 seconds sounds generous, but anything less than a 240/240 is a bust (high master class).
They don’t call it “combat bullseye” without reason.
2008 was the last time I was able to clean Match 1 with either revolver or semiauto.
My 480/480-43x in 1998 hasn’t been topped yet. (Off duty revolver National Record).
Due to league matches cancellation, this is the first season I’ve missed since 1989.

I wouldn’t load target Wadcutters for self defense, but a double end cast wadcutter at top published non-+P loads would be hard to beat. A de-wadcutter at 750fps from a 2” gun would work just as well as anything at 0-7yds. I would however have round flat nose loaded in the speedloader.

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Your right it has been 14 years since the one winter when I shot a local PPC league. I only averaged a 466-20x taking 4th in Revolver division. It was fun for a winter league but with no movement or obstacles and a single static target I lost interest.

I shoot USPSA Revolver division and on a larger field stage (25-32 rounds) with movement and walls, etc if I am shooting a stage in slightly less time (seconds) than the number of rounds I have fired (assuming I have good hits) I am shooting good with the revolver. So yes 20 seconds for 12 rounds seems rather glacial to me coming from USPSA. 32 rounds in 29 seconds while moving my feet is more like it. The A-zone on a USPSA metric target is also bigger than the 10-ring on a PPC target so accuracy while still critical cannot come as the expense of speed, speed is equally critical since you score is bases on points per second shot not raw score. In USPSA you can shoot Charlies fast enough to win though fast Alphas are always better. Different sport with a different focus, but for me PPC was too slow and too static. YMMV

Jesse Heywood said:

IMO it depends on where you live. Here in southern Kansas the juries lean heavily on the side of the gunowner. If I lived in an area over run with liberals (God forbid) I would only carry factory. I know Massad Ayoob says to only carry factory, but he's entitled to his opinion. Let's not turn this thread away from the question posted by the OP, I don't want it to turn ugly.

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I think you are right in that Masaad Ayoob has said to only carry factory ammo, but I thought he had also said he knew of no instance where a prosecutor had made an issue of reloaded ammo. But I find that I remember things that are not so fairly often. Does anyone know one way or the other?

Buy you a 500 pack of wadcutters, go out and kill a bunch of stuff with them, big and small, and make up your own mind.

It's amazing to me how many deeply emotional positions people hold on bullet performance, and most of these positions are held by people who have never and will never kill so much as a rabbit with their chosen bullet.

I'm not entirely discounting the possibility that you might not want to take a quick little jump ahead in your education on bullet performance and study what the experts have to say about it, but a little care might be given to choosing your expert. Too many people who teach this kind of thing have relatively little personal experience in putting bullets in flesh and blood and hair.

Small experience can be deceptive. Brain pan something with your .38 wadcutter, your .22 short, or your .460 magnum, and it's liable to go down like it was hit by a truck. A lesser hit may well take a bit more experience to interpret.

I don't count myself exactly as an example of best practice. A few years ago I had this conversation with a younger brother who had just killed a little doe with a 300 Winchester: "Counting brass, powder, primer, premium bullet, you got 79 cents in that deer." (This was years ago before the most recent rounds of inflation.) "Can you afford to do that every time you want a little meat?"

He said, "I'm flying out to California tomorrow. Yes, I can afford it."

Me, I was using reclaimed lead, and wore out 45-70 brass necked down to 40-65.

For me, a pound of lead represents 47 of the .38 wadcutters. A lot of good, or bad, depending upon you point of view, can be done with that many bullets. Is it the best? To find out I'd have to break down and buy shiny copper clad bullets so expensive that an individual bullet would cost more than I have in the whole pound of lead.

I will say what I think of wadcutters: for target shooting, small game, they're wonderful, all you generally need. Past fifty yards or up against something ugly and I'd choose something different.

The 1939 Stoegers shows Peters "Service Wadcutter" as a 158 at 860 fps in 6", same as the standard roundnose.
The then "Target Wadcutter" was the familiar 148 at 760 fps.

I don't know of a factory Service Wadcutter any more, so you get into the running debate over handloads for defense.
Buffalo Bore has a wadcutter claimed to be "standard pressure" but they must use secret sauce powder because velocity is high and recoil likewise.

Me? I went a long time with the "FBI" 158 gr lead hollow point in steel guns, Nyclad 125 gr Chief's Special in Airweight. I miss those little blue bullets. Now the 135 gr Speer is about the most fun I can stand and that not many.

Maj. Geo. C. Nonte wrote of a target shooter whose only centerfire was a M52 wadcutter automatic but wanted something for home defense. He recommended either the full charge wadcutter or what amounted to .38 Short Colt +P Hollowpoints.

I have been loading 350 grain HBWC to about 750 FPS in a .500 Magnum. Judging by the wallop they give to two liter bottles and scrap lumber, they should do alright for defense. I will carry it as a back-up, as soon as I can find an ankle holster.

I’ve recently started loading HBWC’s reversed, a very good SD round at anything less than 20 yards.
Really good expansion at 820fps.

whm1974 said:

Hello, I haven't been on this Forum in awhile and decided to come back... Long story, short...

Anyhow, I found this article after searching for wadcutter bullets(.357") and it mention(another one too) using wadcutter loading as a defense round.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

I used to keep .38 Special Revolvers for home protection and either used 158 Grain SWC(younger years) or in my 30's 125 grain JHP loads.

Now I have never thought about using loads intended for target shooting for defensive ammo before. But from reading the article wadcutters do make sense for those with weak wrists and /or recoil sensitive along with elderly folks. They also would be perfect for snubnose and small frame revolvers as well.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with using defensive wadcutter loads?

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It all depends on the loading. I remember, offhand, a couple of loadings for both LWC and SWC non-gas checked bullets.

Factory loadings are always way shy of max loads, so are you referring to LWC bullets and how that bullet design configuration would work defensively or are you talking about off the shelf factory ammo? Is the shape of the bullet itself what you are asking about?
For target use we used to load both .357 and .38 Spl rounds with either 3 grains of Bullseye or Unique powder but they were midrange level power and therefore recoil which our girlfriends at the time appreciated. When I was loading JHP defensive rounds for my .357 I was loading up to 7 grains of Unique.

Here's some loading data if that helps:
146-148 grain LWC (Lead Wad Cutter)
(bullets seated deeper = higher pressures)
(I don't recommend lead at over 900 FPS)
(unless at least using a Gas Check)
(with pure lead wadcutters, do not use hot loads)
Bullseye 5.7 gr. 1,475 FPS (max - hot)
Unique 6.4 gr. 1,465 (very hot - max)
Universal 3.5 gr. 880
Universal 4.0 gr. 989
HP38 & W231 3.0 gr. 845
HP38 & W231 3.4 gr. 908
Titegroup 2.9 gr. 830
Titegroup 3.3 gr. 909
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158 grain LSWC or LRN (Semi-Wad Cutter or Round Nose)
(I don't recommend lead at over 950 FPS unless hard cast)
(unless at least using a Gas Check or copper plated)
Bullseye 4.8 gr. 939 max with plain lead bullet
Bullseye 5.8 gr. 1,102 FPS MAX
Clays 3.2 gr. 867
Clays 4.6 gr. 1,079 max
Unique 6.0 gr. 1,034
Unique 6.8 gr. 1,295 max
Universal 4.0 gr. 890
Universal 6.2 gr. 1,247 max
Universal 6.7 gr. 1,297 max +P
PowerPistol 7.4 gr. 963
TrailBoss 3.2 gr. 754
TrailBoss 4.2 gr. 865 max
Titegroup 4.5 gr. 1,028
Titegroup 5.0 gr. 1,108 max
No. 2 5.8 gr. 1,074
No. 5 8.2 gr. 1,239
No. 5 8.0 gr. 1,100
No. 5 9.0 gr. 1,220 max
No. 7 9.1 gr. 1,041 start
No. 7 10.1 gr. 1,183 max
No. 9 11.2 gr. 1,104
No. 9 12.4 gr. 1,255 max
HP38 & W231 3.9 gr. 846
HP38 & W231 3.4 gr. 796
HP38 & W231 5.0 gr. 1,109 max
2400 14.5 gr. 1,178 good load
2400 14.9 gr. 1,232 near max
231 6.7 gr. 1,275 +P max
231 6.1 gr. 1,075 (plated, actual in 7" bbl revolver)
296* 14.5 gr. 1,560 * use magnum primers
ZIP 6.3 gr. 1,176
ZIP 7.0 gr. 1,307 max
True Blue 8.8 gr. 1,176
True Blue 9.8 gr. 1,307 max

If you going to load wad-cutters that hot then why not use a quality HP? What advantage does a wad-cutter offer other than frequently loaded to low recoil?

mcb said:

If you going to load wad-cutters that hot then why not use a quality HP? What advantage does a wad-cutter offer other than frequently loaded to low recoil?

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We loaded LWC's and SWC's for target purposes and there was no point to pushing it to anything over 900 fps. Pure lead bullets are lots cheaper than jacketed bullets so we were saving money on paper punchers. For real deal loads we ponied up the extra money and bought the jacketed stuff.

But the original question is about using wad cutters for self-defense. If you are extremely recoil sensitive then wad-cutters makes some sense since they are most frequently loaded "soft". But other than low recoil what possible advantage does a wad-cutter offer in a self-defense setting? And if your going to start shooting them faster to get better terminal performance does it not make sense to transition to a HP at that point?

mcb said:

And if your going to start shooting them faster to get better terminal performance does it not make sense to transition to a HP at that point?

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I would agree to a point.
Most revolvers with a 2” or less barrel have a hard time getting HP’s to expand properly.

I think there is a bracket between midrange and +P where the .38 Special does not have the velocity to mushroom a hollow point. Home of the Service Wadcutter.
I don't see the point of a high velocity wadcutter.

M. Ayoob said NYPD grudgingly went from roundnose to semiwadcutters but did not see improved performance.

mcb said:

And if your going to start shooting them faster to get better terminal performance does it not make sense to transition to a HP at that point?

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It makes more sense to me, to transition to a better gun.

A full sized Glock or something similar in 9mm is a soft shooter, even with hotter loads, and is a lot easier to shoot than a 2" snubbie, especially for someone who inst a shooter.

Even a 26 is a lot better, and easier to shoot well with.