Storing my C&R shotgun at my brothers home in another state.

Provided your brother isn't a prohibited person just send him a gift card from Academy, etc and he can get his own gun locally. Avoid this illegal movement/transfer of guns. We all are trying to keep you out of prison.

AlexanderA said:

The simplest solution to this is just to have the brother buy a cheap shotgun locally.

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This should have been the only answer.

Dfwkid said:

Provided your brother isn't a prohibited person just send him a gift card from Academy, etc and he can get his own gun locally. Avoid this illegal movement/transfer of guns. We all are trying to keep you out of prison.

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I believe that giving/sending someone money (cash / check / gift card, etc.) for the stated purpose of him/her purchasing a firearm may be considered an illegal STRAW PURCHASE.

Sending someone a gift of money to do with as he/she pleases is legally done every day in this country. Doing so for the expressly stated purpose of bankrolling the purchase of a Firearm, as suggested by several posts in this thread, might be problematic.

I hope Frank Ettin or dogtown tom can clarify that angle.


I just went back and saw no mention by the OP of whether the brothers live in the same, or different, states - that can make a huge difference.


If the OP has a current valid 03FFL and the shotgun in question qualifies as a C&R Firearm, he could transfer it to his brother through an FFL in his brother's state of residence, then Acquire it back with his own 03FFL at a later date if the state laws allow it.

Hard to give solid advice with relevant information missing in the original post, but several of the suggestions given could well result in commissions of felonies - be careful

EDIT -
I re-read the original post multiple times and failed to notice the OP says he and his brother are in different states in the Title of the Thread

Frank Ettin said:

Giving someone money (or something of value), or promising to give him money (or something of value), for him to buy a gun and transfer it to you would be illegal under Abramki v. U. S.,134 S. Ct. 2259 (2014). Giving someone money so that he could buy a gun (or anything else he might want) to keep for himself is not.

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Thanks - that is good to know.

The reason Abramski got prosecuted is that he bought the firearm for his uncle in order for his uncle to get the pricing from the leo discount that Abramski got. The uncle gave Abramski a check before the firearm purchase by Abramski. Thus, Abramski was NOT the actual buyer of the handgun regardless of the background checks and subsequent transfers. The court held that Abramski lied on the 4473 because the evidence indicated prior to the purchase, Abramski intended to buy the firearm for his uncle. That is the definition of a straw buyer.

There is also the matter that Abramski was suspected of committing a bank robbery which is why the investigation occurred in the first place.

@il.bill: Think of it this way: Legally, the crime committed during a straw purchase is when someone lies on question 11a. of Form 4473, which states: “Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?” In other words, it’s asking, “Is this gun for you, or did someone else give you money to buy a gun for them?” So if the gun is for you, then you’re not lying by answering “Yes” to that question and therefore you’re not committing a straw purchase.

As I sometimes tell customers when this question comes up: It doesn't matter who pays for it as long as the person receiving the gun is the one filling out the 4473.

Theohazard said:

@il.bill: Think of it this way: Legally, the crime committed during a straw purchase is when someone lies on question 11a. of Form 4473, which states: “Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?” In other words, it’s asking, “Is this gun for you, or did someone else give you money to buy a gun for them?” So if the gun is for you, then you’re not lying by answering “Yes” to that question and therefore you’re not committing a straw purchase.

As I sometimes tell customers when this question comes up: It doesn't matter who pays for it as long as the person receiving the gun is the one filling out the 4473.

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I would rethink that phrasing....
First, a straw purchase is when person filling out the 4473 is not the actual buyer/transferee, but acquiring the firearm on behalf of the actual buyer/transferee.
Second, who pays certainly does matter, World Pawn and J&G Sales found that out a couple of years ago. This is why you are seeing more and more online retailers warning the transfer dealer to only transfer to the person named on the invoice.

I've refused several transfers in the last two months because the actual buyer couldn't get his story straight.......one after telling me in an email HE was buying a gun, when it arrives it becomes SHE will pick it up because its really for her. Uh no. All of a sudden he decided to say he was out of town and wouldn't be back for a month ...blah blah blah....."can't my wife pick it up for ME?" Nope.

dogtown tom said:

I would rethink that phrasing....

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Agreed, it was poorly phrased in that post. Usually my question to customers where this is an issue starts off with: “Who is the gun actually for?”. If they can’t give me a straight answer or I think they might be lying, I’ll deny the sale. And sometimes they straight up admit to trying to commit a straw purchase since they still think a straw purchase is limited to buying a gun for a prohibited person.

My point was simply that if the person filling out the 4473 is the actual transferree/buyer of the gun, it’s not a straw purchase if someone else gave that person money to pay for it.

Blackrock said:

No felonies committed here just free men living in free states. Face to face firearm transactions are still legal.

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My understanding is that does not apply when the two faces are attached to bodies which legally reside in different states.

dogtown tom said:

Second, who pays certainly does matter, World Pawn and J&G Sales found that out a couple of years ago. This is why you are seeing more and more online retailers warning the transfer dealer to only transfer to the person named on the invoice.

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Honest real life question....

Would it be ok for person A and person B fill out individual 4473s etc at the gun counter for individual guns and both walk to check out counter and person A pays for both A's gun and B's guns together at the same time?

As long as B is taking B's gun home with them as the owner, it should be fine. If it is being done so that A can circumvent a "X firearm purchases per Y days" law and retrieve the gun from B later, then no, it would not be fine.

Thats what i would think too but when Tom mentions invoice, I think register receipt, and that's different than a 4473.

Maybe I need to better understand what Tom means by invoice.



Simply, person A has a credit card and B doesn't and didn't have enough cash on hand to pay himself. Guns stay with respective names on 4473.

danez71 said:

Thats what i would think too but when Tom mentions invoice, I think register receipt, and that's different than a 4473.
Maybe I need to better understand what Tom means by invoice.

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To be clear......my mentioning "transfer only to the name on the invoice" is due to the lawsuit involving World Pawn & J&G Sales. It is not an ATF requirement.
By "invoice" I mean the sales invoice/receipt/packing slip that accompanies most firearm shipments.
The last thing the dealer wants to see is an invoice for John Brown, yet Mary Jones arrives to pick up the gun. The first question that comes to mind is "Why isn't John Brown picking up the gun HE paid for?"
The fear of a straw sale (and the repercussions) makes dealers suspicious of any out of the ordinary sale.
Now, if John Brown had called or emailed me earlier, saying "Hey Tom, Im buying a pistol for my girlfriend, can she come in to pick it up?"..........in my head thats different.

Simply, person A has a credit card and B doesn't and didn't have enough cash on hand to pay himself. Guns stay with respective names on 4473.

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1. It would be the licensees call on whether its a genuine loan. If both are buying it would seem less likely to be a straw purchase.
But.........
2. This could be a means of avoiding the multiple sale of handgun reporting to ATF (required of the dealer when a buyer acquires more than one handgun from that dealer in a five business day period)

castile said:

So my brother does not have any firearm for SD. With things getting so crazy I was thinking of "storing" one of my SGs at his home for my use when I visit. Is this legal? Is there any difference between doing this with a C&R vs non C&R?

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I don't think it matters much if it is a C&R or not.

If you want to transfer it to him, just have him get a C&R license and do it legally.

dogtown tom said:

To be clear......my mentioning "transfer only to the name on the invoice" is due to the lawsuit involving World Pawn & J&G Sales. It is not an ATF requirement.
By "invoice" I mean the sales invoice/receipt/packing slip that accompanies most firearm shipments.
The last thing the dealer wants to see is an invoice for John Brown, yet Mary Jones arrives to pick up the gun. The first question that comes to mind is "Why isn't John Brown picking up the gun HE paid for?"
The fear of a straw sale (and the repercussions) makes dealers suspicious of any out of the ordinary sale.
Now, if John Brown had called or emailed me earlier, saying "Hey Tom, Im buying a pistol for my girlfriend, can she come in to pick it up?"..........in my head thats different.


1. It would be the licensees call on whether its a genuine loan. If both are buying it would seem less likely to be a straw purchase.
But.........
2. This could be a means of avoiding the multiple sale of handgun reporting to ATF (required of the dealer when a buyer acquires more than one handgun from that dealer in a five business day period)

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Thank you... and for the example too.

old lady new shooter said:

My understanding is that does not apply when the two faces are attached to bodies which legally reside in different states.

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You would be correct--outside of FFL's who can transfer firearms across the state lines because of their license, everyone else must transfer through an FFL for transfers among residents from other states. Few odd exceptions not withstanding and wiser to do that on them too because of compliance with state laws in addition. Pretty much interstate transfers through FFL's will take care of both federal and state legal issues in most cases.