Little help with 38 special

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bersaguy

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Setting up my dies for 38 special, I'm using 158 grain powder coated RNFP from a Lee mold
Looks something like this
20200428_200601.jpg
20200428_200521.jpg
Anyhoo, looking up COAL for cast lead 158 grain and they're all right around 1.445ish. I'm finding to get the case to crimp in the crimp groove I'm at 1.325. Should I be crimping at the bottom of that crimp groove? Is 1.325 too short or is 120 thousands not much with 38? This is the first loads I'm doing in this caliber. Also, any suggestions on recipes are welcome. I have w231, power pistol, cfe pistol, bullseye and Titegroup to choose from, though I figure w231 would be my best bet.
 
As long as you start low and work your way up, the short OAL shouldn't be a problem. If possible (and I'll have to check to see...) you might be able to find load data for that particular bullet in the Lee manual, or find a similar OAL in another manual like the Lyman, and work off that.
 
The load I have used for tens of thousands of rounds is a 158 LSWC, LRN and JHP with 3.5 grains Bullseye. This is a great load, and of the same velocities when I compare against factory 38 Special. Which tells me that the pressures have to be ballpark. I don't have pressures gauges, they do. Out of a four inch revolver I typical get 760 fps on a nice day. Velocity goes up to 790 fps on a 100 F day!

Code:
Colt Cobra 2" barrel 30-Jan-05   T = 42 F

158 gr LRN 3.5 grs Bullseye thrown, Fed 100 primers mixed  cases                  
                                                                                                                    
Average=  696.6      
Std Dev=  20.49        
Extreme Spread=72.93        
High= 745.5                              
Low =672.6                              
13 recorded shots      

shoots point of aim when properly held,

Taurus M85 B2UL  2" Barrel                                                                    
                                                                                                                  
158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye thrown, Mixed Brass WSP 11-Dec-04 T = 54 F

Ave Vel =  686.3                                                               
Std Dev = 13.63                   
ES =  58.48                  
High 718.8                                                                
Low=660.3                                                                
N =   30                                                                    

shot little high and centered
                                                          

158 LRN  Master Factory Ammo 30-Dec-04  T = 56 F

Ave Vel =  698.2                                                               
Std Dev = 20.56                  
ES  =105.8                  
High =753.5                  
Low=647.6                                                                
N =32

shot 6" high centered,until barrel leaded
                                                                                                               

158 LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed brass Fed 100 30-Dec-04  T = 56 F

Ave Vel =   706.2                                                               
Std Dev =23.45                                                                 
ES =  81.94                                                                 
High=  748                                                                   
Low=666.1                                                                
N =  48


8BIn9Dj.jpg


This is typical at 50 yards, offhand.

XJwh7va.jpg



4G8fy7T.jpg


In so far as coated, I cannot imagine it making any significant pressure changes or issues, and just seat to the standard crimping groove. The OAL of the bullet has been set there, seating the bullet out may not let you close the cylinder, or whatever. And tiny differences in seating depth are not going to cause pressure problems with this standard pressure and standard velocity load.

Same load shoots well in my 357 Magnums, and to the same velocities

Code:
Colt Trooper MKIII 6" Barrel    
[/B]
158 gr LRN  3.5 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases WSP 
30-Dec-15 T = 55 ° F   

Ave Vel = 768      
Std Dev = 18       
ES  = 72.03     
High  = 798     
Low  = 725.9     
N = 18     



158 gr LRN  3.5 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases WSP 
13-Sep-18 T = 72 ° F   

Ave Vel = 764    
Std Dev = 24       
ES  = 87.45     
High  = 804.1     
Low  = 716.6     
N = 21     


158 LSWC Factory Zero 38 Special ammunition 
13-Sep-18 T = 72 ° F   

Ave Vel = 739    
Std Dev = 38     
ES  = 152.4     
High  = 804.1     
Low  = 651.6     
N = 18     

158 LSWC Factory Hornady  38 Special ammunition, box dated 12-1982
13-Sep-18 T = 90 ° F   

Ave Vel = 734    
Std Dev = 16   
ES  = 50.56   
High  = 755.8   
Low  = 705.3   
N = 16

VTtDI0h.jpg
 
I do get what the OP is asking, however. For newer reloaders... loading faster powders with an OAL that is shorter than published data can get you into trouble, and quick. But I think Rod47 got it... the wider flat nose would produce a shorter bullet, and a shorter OAL.
 
It's the flat nose that throws off your dimension.

Lots of flat nose cast bullets have long OALs. The Lyman 158 grain #358665 has a recommended OAL of 1.445" (in the Lyman manual, 50th edition). At it has a shape just like the OP posted.

That said, Lyman's 150 grain FN SWC # 358156 has an OAL of 1.460" (in the Lyman manual, 50th edition). Their 231 load data is;

start, 3.5 grains for 680 fps.
max, 4.7 grains for 885 fps.
+P, 5.0 grains for 934 fps.
 
Since 1969 I have seated revolver bullets to the crimp groove and disregarded book OAL. A couple reasons being; first, I figured the bullet designers knew where to locate the groove and second the data in reloading manuals are not exacting formula and just the results of what the test techs used in their testing. I also found chasing book OAL would often result in unusable crimp grooves. Never had any pressure problems because every load started low and if necessary, worked up...
 
Thank you all for the quick replies. I'll start working up some loads with the w231 for this weekend.
One other question...I have a mold coming in for 124 grain, same/similar bullet profile. Anyone ever size those down to .356 for use in 9mm?
 
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Pretty close, it's this one:
View attachment 912700
Its sized for .358, so probably drops out of the mold at .359ish I figure it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to run it thru a .356 sizing die. But I have been known figure wrong...

They'll work fine in the 9mm. You might even want to try them at .358". Many 9mm pistols will handle those too, if the loaded round fits in the chamber.
 
With revolvers COAL is less important than with semiautos who have to be fairly uniform to properly load themselves. Loading short is actually good for light loads because it helps to build a bit higher pressure early and tends to shoot cleaner because of it. If your working up a load, start low and work up until it’s consistently clean burning and that should also be a pretty consistent point of impact because the powder should be behaving properly if it is fully and properly combusting.
 
With revolvers COAL is less important than with semiautos who have to be fairly uniform to properly load themselves. Loading short is actually good for light loads because it helps to build a bit higher pressure early and tends to shoot cleaner because of it. If your working up a load, start low and work up until it’s consistently clean burning and that should also be a pretty consistent point of impact because the powder should be behaving properly if it is fully and properly combusting.
This is a very interesting comment, one which I also believe to be true.

I'll take it one step further... Begin at Starting Load and work up until it builds pressure and consistently burns cleaner. If that never happens, then (rather than keep adding powder) proceed to the next step "faster" powder.

And therein lies an issue, because the adjacent powder on a Burn Rate Chart is not always the next logical step. Nor are the powders within a given brand always incrementally spaced.
 
What's inside the case is far more important than the oal's.

A little math: I know!!! we said no math bbuuuuuuuuuuuttttttt:

lee 158gr fn .630" long .270" goes in the case (bottom of bullet to crimp groove)
lee 125gr fn .540" long .265" goes in the case
lyman 358477 150gr swc .675" long .330" goes in the case
lyman 358156 158gr gc swc .690" long .290" goes in the case bottom crimp groove .370" goes in the case top crimp groove
lyman 358429 173gr swc .750" long .400" goes in the case

This graph showing pressures as the oal's decrease is for 9mm's not 38spl but it will give you an idea of how pressures go up when the case capacity goes down from seating the bullet deeper.
iVohJkW.png

IMHO:
I've tried those lee rf bullets in the past. While it's a good bullet design I never liked the small amount of bullet that went into the cases. Any issues with older cases, neck tension shows up quickly with these bullets and it shows on targets. I'm not knocking your bullet choices or lee bullets/molds. I just never got those bullets to shoot accurately. The only thing different with those bullets compared to others is the small amount of bullet body in the case.
 
What's inside the case is far more important than the oal's.

A little math: I know!!! we said no math bbuuuuuuuuuuuttttttt:

lee 158gr fn .630" long .270" goes in the case (bottom of bullet to crimp groove)
lee 125gr fn .540" long .265" goes in the case
lyman 358477 150gr swc .675" long .330" goes in the case
lyman 358156 158gr gc swc .690" long .290" goes in the case bottom crimp groove .370" goes in the case top crimp groove
lyman 358429 173gr swc .750" long .400" goes in the case

This graph showing pressures as the oal's decrease is for 9mm's not 38spl but it will give you an idea of how pressures go up when the case capacity goes down from seating the bullet deeper.
View attachment 912756

IMHO:
I've tried those lee rf bullets in the past. While it's a good bullet design I never liked the small amount of bullet that went into the cases. Any issues with older cases, neck tension shows up quickly with these bullets and it shows on targets. I'm not knocking your bullet choices or lee bullets/molds. I just never got those bullets to shoot accurately. The only thing different with those bullets compared to others is the small amount of bullet body in the case.
I have had the opposite experience on accuracy. 231 and a heavy-ish crimp with a load roughly 1/3 between min and max got me to a clean burn, a respectable level of accuracy, and a decent but pleasant thump to the palm out of a light gun. When I ran out of 231 it was not nearly as easy to get bullseye to work. I had planned to try another powder but I haven’t loaded 38s in a long time. That’s about to change, it’s set up on the bench now.

specifically to accuracy... it was acceptable but was neither overly impressive or poor. Accuracy in handguns has a whole lot to do with bullet base, and it seems like the softer lead bullets are more susceptible to damage during seating. For highest accuracy it’s usually best to go with a jacketed bullet, but with care and a slightly heavier bell on the case you can get by with lead but you have to slow down, carefully place the bullet in the case so that it doesn’t squish or shave the base of the bullet, and be intentionally consistent on seating and crimping.
 
Accuracy means different things to different people. If I can't get a bullet to hold the x-ring on a nra target @ 50ft doing ladder tests with 8 or 9 different powders. I throw in the towel and move on. That's exactly what happened with both the lee bullet the op is using/planning on using.

8/9bhn home cast/pc'd bullets shot out of a s&w 686 6-shot groups @ 50ft that are easily repeatable (note 2 different groups/2 different powders)
AL4WBux.jpg

3.5gr on international clay
3.3gr of bullseye

This is the bullets/loads pictured above, those targets were shot with the 158gr hp
3f3FUJ4.jpg

Some might consider those groups average/poor/etc. Other consider 50ft not a good representation of accuracy. I've always looked at it this way. If a pistol/revolver bullet can't hold the x-ring @ 50ft why bother testing @ 50yds.

Anyway like I said, not badmouthing lee's molds/bullets. I just couldn't get any accuracy of of those 2 .358" rf bullets. Now the lee 160-tl-2r rifle bullet in a 308w or the 124gr swc (h&g 68 clone for the 9mm) are fantastic bullets/designs and the 6-cavity molds make a pile of bullets in a hurry.

Hopefully the op has better luck then I did with the accuracy of those bullets.
 

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One other question...I have a mold coming in for 124 grain, same/similar bullet profile. Anyone ever size those down to .356 for use in 9mm?
I have been using the Lee RNFP bullet in 3, 9mm pistols, 2, 38 Specials and one 357 Magnum. I have sized it to .356" for one of the 9mms, .357 for one 9mm, .357-.358" for my revolvers and one old 9mm, a Tokerev with a .357"+ groove diameter, to .358". Lee sizing dies are easy to get, affordable and easily "customized"...
 
What gun, Bersaguy?
There are things you can do to shoot Specials in a Magnum gun that do not meet Internet Expert Advice.

Be careful with that 125. It is possible to load it TOO light, get the powder against the bullet as by bringing the gun up from low ready, and the primer flash not reach the powder. Only reload I ever stuck a bullet with.
 
Setting up my dies for 38 special, I'm using 158 grain powder coated RNFP from a Lee mold
Looks something like this
View attachment 912638
View attachment 912639
Anyhoo, looking up COAL for cast lead 158 grain and they're all right around 1.445ish. I'm finding to get the case to crimp in the crimp groove I'm at 1.325. Should I be crimping at the bottom of that crimp groove? Is 1.325 too short or is 120 thousands not much with 38? This is the first loads I'm doing in this caliber. Also, any suggestions on recipes are welcome. I have w231, power pistol, cfe pistol, bullseye and Titegroup to choose from, though I figure w231 would be my best bet.
The difference between 1.445'ish and 1.325 is suspiciously the same as the difference in case length between 38sp and 357.
Any chance you were looking at 357 data for that 1.445'ish number?
not sure that makes any sense, just a thought,
:D
 
I have that mold as well.
I seat to 1.445"
I've never had a pressure issue with this round.

Just my 2¢ worth
YMMV
 
What gun, Bersaguy?
There are things you can do to shoot Specials in a Magnum gun that do not meet Internet Expert Advice.
These will be loaded up for a 4" Stainless Ruger Security Six chambered for 357 mag. I doubt I'll get them too hot for my gun, but I don't like making rounds that may be out of spec if they ever find their way into a weaker gun. I have a friend of mine who I go shooting with that once loaded up on some of my 45acp reloads, not really a problem, but I don't usually let anyone else shoot my reloads. But I had happened to put these in a factory box and he grabbed them up. Now I put all my reloads in mtm boxes. But he also has a Model 10, now I doubt he'd mistake the light blue rounds as factory, but I will be traditionally lubing some of them to test out
 
Thank you for all the great replies, just getting into the reloading room now...and it turns out I goofed. The round I mocked up is at 1.425, not 1.325:oops: So that shouldn't be a problem as is, or seating out another 20 thousands.

"I measured once and cut it twice...and the darn thing is still too short"
 
I agree with all the comments made in the earlier post by Slamfire.

The .38 spl was originally a black powder cartridge so it has lots of volume and there isn't any issues with loading too short and reducing the case volume. The only time you will get over pressure in the .38 spl using bullets with weight and design for the cartridge will be from a double or triple charge of powder. Generally this is only an potential problem with fast powders that takes up such small volume in the large .38 spl case that a double charge isn't visually noticed.

Personally I'd load your bullets so the roll crimp puts the case mouth meeting the top of the crimping groove. The only OAL problems you can find in the .38 spl is if you seat the bullet out far enough so that the nose extends beyond the cylinder face usually due to bullet creep under recoil and hangs up cylinder rotation.
 
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