Why a Flintlock maybe what end up with in the apocalypse.

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Fergusons were extremely fragile. A lot of wood was removed for clearance of the breechplug. They would always break around the lock or wrist. Suggest you go w/a synthetic stock (or at least laminated wood).

Great point about the laminated wood stock, which leads me to: why think about old muzzle loading designs when a dystopian future could lead to newer "home brew" muzzle loading designs? Keep it flint lock or match lock, if percussion caps are considered unobtanium.

I mean, if we give this serious thought (assuming Dixie Gun Works is out of business), what would a 22nd century muzzle loader built in tough times look like?

Here's a non-traditional cap and ball rifle, just as an example.
 
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If we have wandered into literature and displacement in time, I might recommend:

1. Lest Darkness Fall by de Camp. A 1939 historian drops back to the end of Rome. Never gets guns to work but with other innovations saves the day.

2. The Island in the Sea of Time books by Stirling. Modern Nantucket into the Bronze age and they do deal with getting firearms manufactured again. Some interesting choices. One plot device was that almost all the modern guns were collected by the Sheriff for community something and a nut burned them up. This was obviously to make life difficult for the Islanders. I actually had a conversation with Stirling and said that would never happen if the displacement took place in TX. He acknowledged that.

He had spin off series - the Emberverse books where an alternate time line from ISOT had technology cease to function. I don't like them. They went off the rails for endless mystical, going nowhere stories.

As far as the discussion of our civilization falling and going Mad Max with a flintlock - I won't run out of modern ammo before I run out of medications and die.

3. This is a touch more obscure: The Shield and Beyond the Shield by Kataczinsky - Modern Israel gets dropped back into 1941 and has to survive. It's a good story.

Piper - gotta love the Little Fuzzy books and the Space Vikings stories.

I've read one out of three of those. Perhaps I will have a break soon to read them if I can find a copy on ebay.
 
A decent lock or action for a flintlock would be really diffucult to make with rudimentary tools. Most early frontier gunmakers imported their locks from manufacturers in Britain, France or factories "back east".

These were guys that had no problem boring out and rifling some of the most accurate weapons in the world at that time, but for the most part they didn't make their own locks.

My point is that just because it's old technology doesn't mean it'd be easy to duplicate for modern people without proper (non electrical) tools or training.
 
4v50 Gary

Thanks for the heads-up! I have only seen one Ferguson Rifle and that was a replica at the NRA Museum in Virginia. In keeping with the more traditional look i wold go with a laminate stock.
 
If we're getting into technologically advanced flintlocks like the Ferguson breech loader, we may as well go whole hog and get a Lorenzoni system lever action repeater using loose powder and ball stored in separate magazines in the buttstock.

Something like THIS would make a perfect post apocalyptic flintlock survival weapon.

According to the auction house, this may have been the weapon used by King Louis XV of France to shoot at a large boar that was charging him, miss, and shoot his own horse in the butt.
 
But there are actually companies which make CNC-machined brass cases. Which doesn't sound like a great idea to me, but apparently it works.
Yes. Rocky Mt. Cartridge Co. is one. The shells are extremely durable....the ones that i have, i will probably be able to leave to my grandkids for their shotguns. AC46AF19-0B1F-4249-A5BB-83F9D8369F8A.jpeg

They are also expensive at $6 each.
 
500 once fired STS will give you a lot of milage, not to mention scrounged field or trap loads where you dump out birdshot and refill with buck.
 
In an average year of subsistence (food) hunting for a family of 9, (without counting kids 'learning/hunting' along side with their rifles), and catching 'Fur', in Northern Alaska, I used to get at least 1,000 rds of .22lr, 200rds 7.62x54r and at least 250 shotgun shells. Theres some left over, but that was what I started the Winter Trapping season ( I used to hit the preXmas Bullet sales in fall :D )
That dosent include "goofing off" and training/learning for the kids and some self practice.

There are mostly solid hits, but , for sure, there are misses, follow up shots, "finishers', bad hits ,duds, dropped shells, etc.
The .22lr and 12 gauge are mostly for small game and birds, thats almost 1/2 of the diet.

If cartridges/primers/caps ran out I do feel my Fusil deChase smoothbore could do it all, but a lance or Bow/arrows would definitely be along as well. Traps/snares for big and small game, game drives and clubbings, netting fish and birds/small game as well.
I have always taken a spare gun along on the camping , as many of my guns over the years have broken with use, and a spare in camp saves everything, while the parts are gotten or repaired.

Im not sure of the projectiles, but old dogyards would fetch up some Nitrates, Sulfur springs to our south, and Willows for charcoal abound. The creek to our south is litterally called "iqnikvik" "place to get fire" with all the pyrites that associate with gold, and as we walk the Candle airport, you can see sparks in the evening as we kick the rocks around. Besides that I know the sources that oldtimes went to for Jasper/Agget /Flint as their knapping scraps , broken, unfinnished blades and cores litter the places these are at.

, Then theres whats laying around the sandbars, as firearms in the Alaskan Arctic have been in general use for more than 200 years. Flintlocks untill the 1850's, cartridge rifles from the late 1860's onward.The market and demand for improved firearms was met with Furs and Baleen, and the most modern firearms were brought by the cases with ammunition by Whalers seeking high profits in trade and Whaling.

Ive found Musket balls, Mini balls, 50/70 , .45/70 and may unidentifiable cartridges orf copper and/or brass, shot, flints, BP gunparts and once, what was left of a brass framed Henry in the river muck (in wretched condition), so this idea isnt new, at one time it was "The latest" and better than archery for those who's lives depended on it.
 
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Here's an interesting video of a craftsman making a flintlock muzzleloading rifle from scratch. I doubt many of us have the requisite skills, I certainly am not even close.



I recently did a short video on Northwest Trade Guns. These were muzzle loading smooth bores used in the American fur trade. Introduced to the continent shortly after the flintlock came into favor in the mid 1600s, these firearms were in continuous use into the 20th century. Muzzle loading shotguns were carried in inventory by the Hudson Bay Company until the 1930s, although by then most were percussion cap firearms. The enduring popularity of these guns was for the reasons mentioned by earlier posters: Versatility in loads from birdshot to round ball and lack of dependence on percussion caps or cartridges. Native Americans, mountain men, and traders could knap their own flints or acquire from those who had that skill. All that was needed was powder and projectiles.

Here's the video on Trade Guns.

 
And I forgot to mention in my previous post,, if its scratch built and home powder'd Flintlocks, I forgot to mention the Book in the series "Foxfire, #5 ' , in print with all thats needed to build and shoot, when your starting with nothing.

Great vids, Coyote.
 
This is not the first, nor the last, discussion of shooting materials availability in the far future, and my usual wisecrack is we'd all better learn how to knap flint. (Although I have not seen electric ignition discussed at all for "primitive" weapons,)

The materials for propellant powder are not impossible to find; charcoal is obvious, saltpeter has a well-known relatively simple process for refining from urine and things like bat and pigeon guano.* Sulfur is a little problematic and even though it comes out of wells here in the U.S., the wells may not be functioning in the future.

I am told that the only current ground-level source for sulphur nowadays is Sicily. While I have seen flint just lyng around, I don't ever recall seeing any sulfur up for grabs.

But I guess once you have the oxidizer (K- Na- or whatever -NO[sub]3[/sub]), lots of fuel substitutions can be made. I don't know for sure, but I think regular sugar might be usable. Maybe even corn starch.

Terry, 230RN

*Here's a great book for the history of BP:
https://jackkellybooks.com/gunpowder/

Related, in a way:


Edited to add "relatively simple."
 
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I don't know what will be available at the apocalypse but in the meantime I would like to get a northwest trade musket and a 32 cal rifle.
 
There are some very powerful lasers out now, small enough to be portable.

They can really burn flesh, and will permanently blind any living thing.

Just sayin'...

Conelrad
 
Guess I am set then. Please post link to formula for black powder. Something about charcoal, saltpeter and???

75% (by weight) Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) - 15% powdered charcoal - 10% Sulfur (S)

Black powder can be prepared in a simple, safe manner. It may be used as blasting or gun powder.
MATERIAL REQUIRED: ------ Potassium Nitrate, granulated - 3 cups;
Wood charcoal, powdered - 2 cups;
Sulfur, powdered - 1/2 cup;
Alcohol - 5 pints (80 fl. oz.) [rubbing alcohol, etc.];
Water - 3 cups; Heat source;
2 buckets - each 2 gallon capacity, at least one of which is HEAT RESISTANT (metal, ceramic, etc.);
Flat window screening, at least 1 foot square; Large wooden stick; Cloth, at least 2 feet square;
PROCEDURE: ---------
1) Place ALCOHOL in one of the buckets.
2) Place POTASSIUM NITRATE, CHARCOAL, and SULFUR in the heat resistant bucket. Add 1 cup water and mix thoroughly with wooden stick until all ingredients are dissolved.
3) Add remaining water (2 cups) to mixture. Place bucket on heat source and stir until small bubbles begin to form.
**CAUTION: DO NOT BOIL MIXTURE!!** Be sure ALL mixture stays WET. If ANY is dry, as on sides of pan, it may ignite!!
4) Remove bucket from heat and pour mixture into alcohol while stirring vigorously.
5) Let alcohol mixture stand about 5 minutes. Strain mixture through cloth to obtain black powder. Discard liquid. Wrap cloth around black powder and squeeze to remove all excess liquid.
6) Place screening over dry bucket. Place workable amount of damp powder on screen and granulate by rubbing solid through screen.
**NOTE: If granulated particles appear to stick together and change shape, recombine entire batch of powder andrepeat steps 5 & 6.
7) Spread granulated black powder on flat, dry surface so that layer about 1/2 inch (1-1/4 cm) is formed. Allow to dry. Use radiator, or direct sunlight. This should be dried as soon as possible, preferably in an hour. **The longer the drying period, the less effective the black powder.**
****CAUTION: Remove from heat AS SOON AS granules are dry. Black powder is now ready to use.


Why not a matchlock? They're much easier to produce.

The problem with the matchlock, while simpler, the "match" can go out without you realizing it, esp. in very humid conditions. That is why they were phased out in favor of flintlocks.
 
Charcoal is easy, and let's assume you live next to an active volcano spewing raw sulfer. Where do you get the Saltpeter from?... assuming the internet is down and the local garange ran out of saltpeter shortly after they ran out of W231... and were overrun then looted by panicing crowds cleaning them out of everything of any value... a hundred years ago.

I think I might place my bets on a good compound bow instead of a flint lock that doesn't have any gun powder.

P.S. you have to mill the black powder to a quite fine powder in order to get any kind of bang instead of just a pfffffft. It is a bit more difficult to make an effective batch of black powder than Captin Kirk would have you to believe.
 
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Where do you get the Saltpeter from?.
The army "improvised munitions handbook" talks about leaching saltpeter out of the soil around the base of mossy trees. I haven't done this, and it's been years since I read the relevant book, but the information is out there.

Before you get to this primitive level, though, there are plenty of ways you can scrounge explosives out of the detritus of civilization. In WW2, for example, partisans made very effective demolition explosive out of old (nitrocellulose) movie film.
 
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What many of you are forgetting (ironic, I know) is that technology will not be forgotten. No need to reinvent the wheel, or the internal combustion engine, or modern machinery, or firearms and ammunition design.

Of course, where is the fun in that? Remembering such means that this thread didn't need to exist.
 
The army "improvised munitions handbook" talks about leaching saltpeter out of the soil around the base of mossy trees. I haven't done this, and it's been years since I read the relevant book, but the information is out there.

Before you get to this primitive level, though, there are plenty of ways you can scrounge explosives out of the detritus of civilization. In WW2, for example, partisans made very effective demolition explosive out of old (nitrocellulose) movie film.

The last time I looked up how to process saltpeter I had to use the school library and search through several different sets of encyclopedias. LOL! I remember it was a bit more challenging than I was able to pull off in my back yard (I don't think I could have slipped the tons of manure into my backyard without my mother having something to say about it at the time). Here is a good exert from wikipedia:

From mineral sources[edit]
In Ancient India, saltpeter manufacturers formed the Nuniya caste.[17] Saltpeter finds mention in Kautilya's Arthashastra (compiled 300BC - 300CE), which mentions using its poisonous smoke as a weapon of war[18], although its use for propulsion did not appear until medieval times.

A purification process for potassium nitrate was outlined in 1270 by the chemist and engineer Hasan al-Rammah of Syria in his book al-Furusiyya wa al-Manasib al-Harbiyya (The Book of Military Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices). In this book, al-Rammah describes first the purification of barud (crude saltpeter mineral) by boiling it with minimal water and using only the hot solution, then the use of potassium carbonate (in the form of wood ashes) to remove calcium and magnesium by precipitation of their carbonates from this solution, leaving a solution of purified potassium nitrate, which could then be dried.[19] This was used for the manufacture of gunpowder and explosive devices. The terminology used by al-Rammah indicated a Chinese origin for the gunpowder weapons about which he wrote.[20]

At least as far back as 1845, Chilean saltpeter deposits were exploited in Chile and California.

From caves[edit]
A major natural source of potassium nitrate was the deposits crystallizing from cave walls and the accumulations of bat guano in caves.[21] Extraction is accomplished by immersing the guano in water for a day, filtering, and harvesting the crystals in the filtered water. Traditionally, guano was the source used in Laos for the manufacture of gunpowder for Bang Fai rockets.

LeConte[edit]
Perhaps the most exhaustive discussion of the production of this material is the 1862 LeConte text.[22] He was writing with the express purpose of increasing production in the Confederate States to support their needs during the American Civil War. Since he was calling for the assistance of rural farming communities, the descriptions and instructions are both simple and explicit. He details the "French Method", along with several variations, as well as a "Swiss method". N.B. Many references have been made to a method using only straw and urine, but there is no such method in this work.

French method[edit]
Turgot and Lavoisier created the Régie des Poudres et Salpêtres a few years before the French Revolution. Niter-beds were prepared by mixing manure with either mortar or wood ashes, common earth and organic materials such as straw to give porosity to a compost pile typically 4 feet (1.2 m) high, 6 feet (1.8 m) wide, and 15 feet (4.6 m) long.[22] The heap was usually under a cover from the rain, kept moist with urine, turned often to accelerate the decomposition, then finally leached with water after approximately one year, to remove the soluble calcium nitrate which was then converted to potassium nitrate by filtering through potash.

Swiss method[edit]
LeConte describes a process using only urine and not dung, referring to it as the Swiss method. Urine is collected directly, in a sandpit under a stable. The sand itself is dug out and leached for nitrates which were then converted to potassium nitrate using potash, as above.

From nitric acid[edit]
From 1903 until the World War I era, potassium nitrate for black powder and fertilizer was produced on an industrial scale from nitric acid produced using the Birkeland–Eyde process, which used an electric arc to oxidize nitrogen from the air. During World War I the newly industrialized Haber process (1913) was combined with the Ostwald process after 1915, allowing Germany to produce nitric acid for the war after being cut off from its supplies of mineral sodium nitrates from Chile (see nitratite).


Now all you need is a few tons of manure, some beer to get your kidneys going and a ready supply of Potash (and don't forget that supply of sulfur from your local volcano) .
Gun Powder including smokeless and BP. Our supplies of smokeless would run out. Making smokeless at home, isn’t an easy task and isn’t safe. Making black powder is very simple to do, and can easily be done. Because of this, it is another item I don’t think we would ever run out of. Not unless we run out of the items that make BP in the first place.
Hmmm... I am liking the compound bow more the more I read!
 
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In an average year of subsistence (food) hunting for a family of 9, (without counting kids 'learning/hunting' along side with their rifles), and catching 'Fur', in Northern Alaska, I used to get at least 1,000 rds of .22lr, 200rds 7.62x54r and at least 250 shotgun shells. Theres some left over, but that was what I started the Winter Trapping season ( I used to hit the preXmas Bullet sales in fall :D )
That dosent include "goofing off" and training/learning for the kids and some self practice

Honestly less than some might have thought. There's lots of people around me who regularly use that much ammo in a weekend at the ranges. Definitely a practical use versus hobby difference there. Of course we have the opposite spectrum of guys still in the same 20 round box after a decade of deer seasons.
 
The Corps of Discovery survived the wilds of the early west for three years with their flintlock rifles. Wild animals and hostile natives, not to mention hunting their provisions.
Sealed lead casks full of gunpowder was a great idea.
If modern cartridge guns had existed, that is what they would have taken. People always outfit with the best gear they can afford. Looking instead at turn of the century explorers and hunters in the African continent is probably a better example. I have to agree people are innovative and technology tends to move forward in the face of adversity. Rather than the world becoming a few loners in the woods, people will naturally congregate and create industry. Someone will be making and trading ammunition.
 
Nah. A bow of some sort. Rapidly reloads, easy transport of ammo, pretty quiet. I personally like the crossbow, but they are a bit harder to reload than some sort of long bow. And compounds have some pretty nice velocities.
 
There are some very powerful lasers out now, small enough to be portable.

They can really burn flesh, and will permanently blind any living thing.

Just sayin'...
Conelrad
Nah. A bow of some sort. Rapidly reloads, easy transport of ammo, pretty quiet. I personally like the crossbow, but they are a bit harder to reload than some sort of long bow. And compounds have some pretty nice velocities.
Blind archers with terrible sunburns battling against laser armed holdouts from the technological age.

This future is gonna be interestin'... :)
 
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