What about the manual of arms of a shotgun is more complex than an AR? I thought shotguns were one of the simplest things to operate. The AR is not really complicated, but it does have multiple ways to do the same thing which result in some features that might be unnecessary as well as some that people may never use. I've never seen a shotgun with a forward assist, unless it was an AR shotgun, or unless pumps count.
Shotgun vs. Rifle for CQB
- Thread starter labnoti
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Good Ol' Boy
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I keep loaded mags ready for my AR but my 12g pump is what's "at the ready" in terms of long guns.
I live rural and it's just as likely if not more so for me to run into a large 4 legged critter as a 2 legged. It is for this reason I keep the 12 ready to go with slugs.
I practice with both guns equally so that's not an issue. For ME, my AR is a SHTF gun. My 12g is more practical for where I live for general/overall use.
It should be noted that my primary "HD gun" is my G17, the 12g is there as a last resort for HD.
I live rural and it's just as likely if not more so for me to run into a large 4 legged critter as a 2 legged. It is for this reason I keep the 12 ready to go with slugs.
I practice with both guns equally so that's not an issue. For ME, my AR is a SHTF gun. My 12g is more practical for where I live for general/overall use.
It should be noted that my primary "HD gun" is my G17, the 12g is there as a last resort for HD.
entropy
Member
I have lots of experience with both- Years of Trap shooting with both semi-auto and pump shotguns, (still do-an 1100 Competition) and military training. I agree with Good Ol' Boy; my (In my case, pump) shotgun is my HD gun, (along with my PT145) the AR pistol is my 'longer term civil unrest' gun. (And range toy.) I am equally adept with either, but I believe the 5 rounds the shotgun holds will handle any initial situation that comes up with authority, and should I need more firepower, the .45 is sitting right next to it with 11 rounds (and a spare mag right next to it) I can fight my way to the AR with.
Obturation
Member
Inside 25 yards- shotgun. No one can convince me that a single high velocity projectile is equal.
Training is most important but when my life is on the line I choose raw power . not trying to argue effectiveness or tactics, a miss is a miss and a hit is a hit, connect with your target and it's all done but the paperwork. Even if the shotgun load doesn't spread much, it's still going to be 70+ caliber wad of lead at multiple times the weight at a sound level that won't make your ears bleed .
Training is most important but when my life is on the line I choose raw power . not trying to argue effectiveness or tactics, a miss is a miss and a hit is a hit, connect with your target and it's all done but the paperwork. Even if the shotgun load doesn't spread much, it's still going to be 70+ caliber wad of lead at multiple times the weight at a sound level that won't make your ears bleed .
Armored farmer
Member
I really like my 10.5" AR pistol, and keep it in my under bed safe. However, I am so much more comfortable with an 870.
I have to choose 12ga 870 based on my familiarity with it.
Trap gun, bird gun, waterfowl gun, HD gun...all 870s.
I have to choose 12ga 870 based on my familiarity with it.
Trap gun, bird gun, waterfowl gun, HD gun...all 870s.
luzyfuerza
Member
Operating a shotgun to down birds or bust clays is very different from operating a shotgun for defense from two-legged predators.
An autoloading shotgun's manual of arms in defensive use is more complex than an AR primarily in the area of ammo handling.
Unless you're considering shotguns modified for games like three-gun or which are magazine-fed, then every fresh round of ammo has to be fed into the gun individually.
So, tac-loads, while conceptually simple, are painfully slow...one round at a time.
Also, grabbing individual shotgun rounds and loading them into a tubular magazine requires more fine manual dexterity than a "beer-can" AR mag change. Especially when under time pressure, or, I suppose, on a two-way range. More practice is certainly required.
Techniques like port-loading an empty shotgun and switching from buck to slug with a partially-loaded magazine need to be in your toolset, and these require practice to master.
Extra rounds to reload a shotgun in an HD/CQB scenario will probably be mounted on the gun in a sidesaddle or buttcuff. Unless you have enough warning to don your belt-mounted shell carriers. That's up to three locations where ammo may need to be accessed before an AR mag is something like 2/3 empty. That's more complex.
Malfunction clearing procedures are kind of similar. But when you leave a live round on the ground after clearing a type 3 in a shotgun, that's, say, 20 percent of your ready ammo supply, versus 3.3 percent in an AR.
Some say that they'll likely always resolve their problem with the rounds initially loaded into their shotgun and that their guns never malfunction. That's fine. Kind of like revolver folks saying that six rounds of 357/44/45/454 super magnum is enough for them and their guns never malfunction.
But saying that defensive shotguns are simple to operate well, and are as easy as an AR, isn't really accurate.
I prefer my Benelli M2 shotguns. One is a Field gun, with an 18.5” Tactical barrel, with rifle sights. My aging eyes like these particularly bold sights. This became my duty shotgun, when I decided to semi-retire my 870P. (I have since retired, myself.) The other left the factory as a Tactical, with the ghost ring sight configuration. I may install a rail, and an optic, on this second Benelli.
I have a decent working knowledge of the AR15 system, having been trained a certified to carry one, as a patrol rifle, in 2002. I never leaned to favor the AR15 in the CQB role.
I have a decent working knowledge of the AR15 system, having been trained a certified to carry one, as a patrol rifle, in 2002. I never leaned to favor the AR15 in the CQB role.
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JTHunter
Member
Ladies and Gents - inside my home, the first gun I would grab is a 12 ga. SxS with double triggers. With that, I can give a target a massive blast of both OO Buck (15 pellets) and #4 Buck (40 pellets) which, even at 10 feet, will be more forgiving of "aiming errors" than any handgun or rifle. With the aforementioned load, aim at the targets waist/groin area and you will likely take out the femoral artery of one or both thighs. Messy, but they will bleed out in a couple of seconds. You might also break the thigh or hip (or both), crippling and dropping the target.
If more is needed, a .357 revolver and an AK with a 40 rd. banana are also on the same wall rack.
If more is needed, a .357 revolver and an AK with a 40 rd. banana are also on the same wall rack.
FWIW, my wife worked 21 years as a forensic death scene investigator for the M.E., in the third most-populous county in the USA. (Same county as the Joe Horn incident, though that did not occur on her shift.) Her home-defense long gun is a Remington 870 Wingmaster, with a Laser Products (early Surefire) weapon-light fore end. She is quite interested in the Tavor bullpup-configuration shotgun.
Notably, she was a death scene investigator, not a morgue doc. Blood spatter evidence is a science, providing evidence of how far, and how fast, the decedent moved, after being shot.
Notably, she was a death scene investigator, not a morgue doc. Blood spatter evidence is a science, providing evidence of how far, and how fast, the decedent moved, after being shot.
FL-NC
Member
An AR in 223 or any of the PCC's are superior to anything you listed for defense inside of a home.
All that was a good explanation. Thanks. I also think you fairly acknowledged that ammo-handling or reloading might not be a heavily-weighted criteria for some people. I tend to side with people that give light weight to reloads in personal protection and home defense, but I wouldn't do that for every kind of CQB situation at all. I think for patrol officers, swat, military, and special operations, both high round count and reloads have to weigh heavily.
Why is that?
I think so far the case for AR's and carbines have been high-capacity, easy reloads, and low recoil. I can see the 223 and pistol cartridges having low recoil, but is that your reasoning? or is it the overpenetration thing?
Obturation
Member
If someone can provide an instance where overpenetration has been a factor in a civilian (self defense) shooting, where a bystander was struck , that would be helpful . as far as I've seen, it doesn't happen.
entropy
Member
How so? Your pattern at 10' is 3-3.5 inches. Choke won't matter, either, at that distance.
Despite the previously cited error, you had a somewhat cogent logic for your choice (despite exsangunation being the slowest method of taking an adversary out of the fight) until the little gem I bolded in the second quote. At the word "banana" your 'operator' status was degraded to Fudd, Second Class.
Just kidding around. I haven't heard banana for a magazine in ages. Sounds like you are well armed, but I'd suggest a range session with the shotgun at the ranges you expect to use it for HD at. It may be a learning experience.
I 100% agree with why you chose a shotgun, but they do need to be aimed, unless you are shooting at fast moving, flying targets.
I have the same sentiment. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that they should not be considerate of overpenetration, but I put a lot more value on equipment that will help me make hits, or at least hinder me the least in doing so, and in terminal effectiveness. If I were to start becoming more concerned about overpenetration, I would begin with making more hits, and not needing a long string of them to be effective because that minimizes the number of projectiles going anywhere.
Is a shotgun or carbine better for making hits and stopping fights? The shotgun has recoil, but it 'patterns' at sufficient range and much farther than that the pattern has holes. As it has been pointed out, there's only a certain narrow range where it makes hitting easier. Buckshot at longer ranges is not the most effective, neither is it a good stopper on chest plates or even soft armor (at least not individual pellets). .223 has less recoil, but doesn't spray patterns (unless it's from a belt-fed SAW). It is more effective on plates or vests but maybe comparatively less effective than 12ga on unarmored bodies at close range.
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Why does it matter if it was a civilian self defense shooting? Bullets behave the same regardless of who fired them.
entropy
Member
The legal ramifications are different. An LEO has a govt. entity behind them, a criminal doesn't care either way.
Elkins45
Member
What makes a good gun for shooting a course doesn't necessarily make the best gun for self-defense. Targets aren't fighting back and all hits are equal when shooting paper. Courses totally discount the importance of stopping power.
I'm not going to be shooting 30 guys under fences or behind cars. I'm going to be crouched down behind the bed and either shooting thru the doorway or the window. I will gladly take the devastating wounding ability of a shotgun over the magazine capacity and lower recoil of a carbine. If I run the shotgun empty them I will immediately transition to my bedside pistol unless I have the opportunity to reload from the ammo stored on the gun.
I don't know that there's a single right answer for everyone. I do know what's right for me.
I agree. That doesn't really have anything to do with why I asked the question though. Take a look at the post I quoted.
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FL-NC
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Weight, ease of use, penetration, mag capacity, low recoil, lower flash and blast, modular capabilities for required accessories like white lights.
George P
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Not really any more. A questionable shoot where innocents were hurt is going to be costly, both mentally and financially.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
While this is pretty off topic I would agree.
If your dept and local AG fails you as a LEO you basically have the same odds as a civilian.
Some might say worst odds as you would be food for the MSM, even more so than the average Joe.
Space Ghost
Member
The shotgun for CQB just isn't a good choice. At least not in my book. Now, as far as being an effective round at stopping a threat at CQB distance, nobody is going to argue the point. A 12 gauge shotgun shooting a #4 buck (or larger pellet) at close range is an absolutely devastating weapon, at least to an unarmored opponent. My problem is not with the power of the round itself, but rather the size, and weight of it, and of the weapons that fire it, their design, and the recoil they subject the shooter to.
If we're truly talking CQB, and not just a "bump in the night" home defense gun (and even then in my book) the shotgun is just not suited to the CQB role. By design they are always gong to be heavier, and less ergonomic than a good combat carbine like an AR. You will have very limited ammo capacity, and be slower to reload. On top of this, what few rounds you do have will recoil with substantially more force, slowing down your follow up, and transitional shots on difficult, or multiple targets. Precision will never be available with multiple pellets spreading out... It is much more difficult to train a family or team member to the same competence level with a shot gun, than it is with a rifle. Same goes for handguns, by the way.
A shotgun is a firearm that CAN be pressed into service as a weapon, and often is, but it is much better suited for use as designed... hunting. It's strength lies it it's versatility because of the different types of shot (or slugs) it can fire. The ability to go from small moving game animals like rabbits, and squirrels, to birds on the wing varying from dove, to pheasant, to duck. There's always turkey, and it can go all the way up to larger game animals like deer or bigger. This is why we have shotguns. Change the ammo, change the guns capability. Changing it's role altogether into that of a combat weapon...? Not so easily done, and quite frankly, left to better suited weapons. It has combat capability, and that's great, but it's not ever gonna be better suited to that role than a rifle.
If we're truly talking CQB, and not just a "bump in the night" home defense gun (and even then in my book) the shotgun is just not suited to the CQB role. By design they are always gong to be heavier, and less ergonomic than a good combat carbine like an AR. You will have very limited ammo capacity, and be slower to reload. On top of this, what few rounds you do have will recoil with substantially more force, slowing down your follow up, and transitional shots on difficult, or multiple targets. Precision will never be available with multiple pellets spreading out... It is much more difficult to train a family or team member to the same competence level with a shot gun, than it is with a rifle. Same goes for handguns, by the way.
A shotgun is a firearm that CAN be pressed into service as a weapon, and often is, but it is much better suited for use as designed... hunting. It's strength lies it it's versatility because of the different types of shot (or slugs) it can fire. The ability to go from small moving game animals like rabbits, and squirrels, to birds on the wing varying from dove, to pheasant, to duck. There's always turkey, and it can go all the way up to larger game animals like deer or bigger. This is why we have shotguns. Change the ammo, change the guns capability. Changing it's role altogether into that of a combat weapon...? Not so easily done, and quite frankly, left to better suited weapons. It has combat capability, and that's great, but it's not ever gonna be better suited to that role than a rifle.
entropy
Member
The most effective tool for CQB is the V-40 grenade; the M33 is too much.
While labnoti did not specify, most of the posters here have taken his meaning for CQB as HD, not actual combat arms CQB; my favorite for that is actually the MP5SD3; I know what I can do with one if I have to kick doors. And I would also agree with FL-NC in that case, yes, the AR is a better choice for CQB, if we define CQB as Combat or LE door-kicking. But for HD, where most of use will be hunkering down in a pre-agreed upon room in the house, wait it out and let the professionals clear the place, a Shotgun is quite effective in trained hands. (or even untrained hands; as George P points out, once loaded, the manual of arms for one-time use is simple; release safety, pull trigger, pump if applicable, or pull trigger again if necessary. Yes; they get trickier to reload in combat, luzyfuerza covered that already. )
You do realize there are shotguns that have been designed for .......combat? An M1014 isn't good for hunting game, other than grouse.......maybe as bear protection.
So-if the definition of CQB for the purposes of this thread is Combat, or LE SWAT type work, then, yes, the AR is clearly the better choice.
If the definition here is HD, while the AR has many things going for it, the shotgun is still a very good choice. I stated my reasons for my choice in post #28.
While labnoti did not specify, most of the posters here have taken his meaning for CQB as HD, not actual combat arms CQB; my favorite for that is actually the MP5SD3; I know what I can do with one if I have to kick doors. And I would also agree with FL-NC in that case, yes, the AR is a better choice for CQB, if we define CQB as Combat or LE door-kicking. But for HD, where most of use will be hunkering down in a pre-agreed upon room in the house, wait it out and let the professionals clear the place, a Shotgun is quite effective in trained hands. (or even untrained hands; as George P points out, once loaded, the manual of arms for one-time use is simple; release safety, pull trigger, pump if applicable, or pull trigger again if necessary. Yes; they get trickier to reload in combat, luzyfuerza covered that already. )
You do realize there are shotguns that have been designed for .......combat? An M1014 isn't good for hunting game, other than grouse.......maybe as bear protection.
So-if the definition of CQB for the purposes of this thread is Combat, or LE SWAT type work, then, yes, the AR is clearly the better choice.
If the definition here is HD, while the AR has many things going for it, the shotgun is still a very good choice. I stated my reasons for my choice in post #28.
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