I consider such a return that to be the lowest risk of not trying to detain a criminal, and far, far lower than the risks of trying to detain one.If your not able & willing to watch a THREAT with distance & from behind cover = then ok,good for you to ask him /them to leave. And even better if they do leave and not return to take out their only witness !.
True, unless that movement is mis-interpreted as an aggressive and immediately threatening act under the circumstances, and leads to placing a finger on the trigger.. It is an unnecessary riskIF your finger is off the trigger [ and if not = DO NOT CARRY A GUN ] then a 'sudden movement' will not result in a discharge.
I do recommend training, but I stopped crimes with guns before I had ever received any defensive training.And IF you have not gotten any training is stopping a crime with a gun = why even bother to carry a gun to address a threat ?.
Most defensive gun use incidents, and all of mine to date, have not involved shooting.If your only possible reaction to a criminal ,is to draw& shoot, your not one I want to see armed.
For me, none of my plans will involve putting myself at risk, physical or otherwise, by trying to detain anyoneYou should have already 'gamed' in your mind YOUR worst scenario,and come up with a few answers to your second plan hitting that fan ,with the rest of the manure.
I consider such a return that to be the lowest risk of not trying to detain a criminal, and far, far lower than the risks of trying to detain one.
If a criminal is detained at the scene, and if the defender is not shot, the criminal may well be out and about, with an attitude, before the defender gets his gun back.
If he leaves, it is very unlikely that he will take a chance on returning.
True, unless that movement is mis-interpreted as an aggressive and immediately threatening act under the circumstances, and leads to placing a finger on the trigger.. It is an unnecessary risk
I never have my finger on the trigger unless I am about to shoot.
But of course that suddn movment could represent a real danger. There was a case in which to armed, trained FBI agents were, together, detainong a man on the ground in front of them while waiting for police. He found the opportunity to access a hidden weapon and kill bpth of them.
I do recommend training, but I stopped crimes with guns before I had ever received any defensive training.
I have in fact received training in how to detain a criminal, and sound advice to not do so except under very limited circumstances.
Most defensive gun use incidents, and all of mine to date, have not involved shooting.
For me, none of my plans will involve putting myself at risk, physical or otherwise, by trying to detain anyone
What in the world are you talking about?NEVER did I point a finger at you,about any of my posts ---- you chose to take it as it was you and no one else.
Guess I cannot say anything that will not be about you ?.
Your above post where you tear me a new A hole ,quote by quote.What in the world are you talking about?
I responded "quote by quote" do discuss the ideas individually.Your above post where you tear me ...,quote by quote.
I most certainly did not take your comments personally. Nor should you take my response personally.As if I was talking about and at you
As I interpreted your post, you seemed to discount the risks incurred by a civilian attempting to detain a suspect, and to suggest that a defender can have but two but reasonable choices--detain or shoot.I posted the FACTS that I see and firmly believe to be true
Ok, we agree on that as much as I am STRONGLY annoyed at how many think they "know" how to retain their weapon.[ yea,off topic ].I responded "quote by quote" do discuss the ideas individually.
I most certainly did not take your comments personally. Nor should you take my response personally.
As I interpreted your post, you seemed to discount the risks incurred by a civilian attempting to detain a suspect, and to suggest that a defender can have but two but reasonable choices--detain or shoot.
Perhaps that was not your intention.
When we posted many of the same thoughts three years ago in the thread linked above, you appeared to be in strong agreement.
My main point now, as then, is that I do not believe it prudent for a civilian to try to detain a suspect.
What is your take on that?
I do indeed.Hope you see my point,thanks
I was taught in the Academy and other training that you have to try and maintain a 3' personal or reactive space between you and the perp at all times. This gives you time to react in the event of an attack!
I was taught in the Academy and other training that you have to try and maintain a 3' personal or reactive space between you and the perp at all times. This gives you time to react in the event of an attack!
My (limited) experience with force-on-force training showed that 3 ft is not nearly enough reaction space.
Old video of an old man... In another lifetime, we tested this. And they say never bring a knife to a gunfight...
After watching the small film clip of the Georgia incident that resulted in homicide charges against a father and son... It looks to me as a clear case of what can happen if anyone allows themself into close contact range while armed... In a confrontation situation.....
The two would certainly have faced charges without the killing. That close proximity was the primary factor that escalated the situation into a killing in my opinion.
I’d like to hear from trainers and others about maintaining distance from others in any confrontation situation.
GREAT breakdown of the 'incident'.In court, my guess what the prosecution is going to allege is that the shot individual had the right to confront and try to disarm the person presenting a threat to him because the two (perhaps including a third--the guy who video'ed it.). In other words, the posse of three started the confrontation by pursuing and then attempting to block the deceased. The revenge motive might also be present with the theft of one of the individual's handguns from their car this year.
We have a brief view of the defense in the case from snippets in the media, a) what the individuals were doing was legal under Georgia law (turns on probable cause that the deceased was a burglar) and they were attempting to make a "citizen's arrest", b) that pursuing and attempting to block a suspected burglar from escaping was "reasonable" under Georgia law. Some of the factors include that the road was public where both the deceased and the posse had a right to be; who did the jury believe start the confrontation which deals with timing; what the video shows and doesn't show; what witnesses observed or heard about the mindset of the participants; and what the police officers/coroner/other expert witnesses testify about the actions.
The commonality between this case and the Trayvon case is that both involved individuals outside a vehicle with a firearm; both involved a deceased person who was unarmed; both involved a situation where the confrontation happened in public; both had a racial component; and both cases have a basic question of "who started the conflict" which has implications for self defense.
As far as the tactical goes, if the posse did suspect that the deceased was armed from a previous theft, it was poor tactics to confront the guy. Similarly, for the confrontation between the shooter and the deceased, it was a very poor tactic to be out of the vehicle--a fist against a locked vehicle is not going to go very far. Third, a citizen's arrest for a non-forcible felony, aside from the generally bad tactic to try to do this absent a true emergency, is simply stupid. Fourth, complacency can kill. The posse must have thought that no one would resist three guys, the deceased would not try to seize the longarm, and one of the posse's credentials/training/experience as a former leo would win in any confrontation. They were wrong. Fifth, videoing a confrontation by the posse can go both ways--in a sense, the jury trusts visual information more than witness testimony because the camera "cannot lie". Note that the third party videoing the confrontation might possibly face charges as an accessory. In Georgia law, we have the felony murder rule which often causes individuals involved in a situation to turn on each other in court to avoid being charged with the murder themselves.
O.C.G.A. §16-5-1 (2010)
16-5-1. Murder; felony murder
(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.
(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.
(c) A person also commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.
(d) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death, by imprisonment for life without parole, or by imprisonment for life.
coupled with this,
Georgia statute O.C.G.A. §16-2-20 (2010) https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-2/article-2/16-2-20/
(a) Every person concerned in the commission of a crime is a party thereto and may be charged with and convicted of commission of the crime.
(b) A person is concerned in the commission of a crime only if he:
In essence, the posse bet their life, liberty, reputation, and property, in order to secure an alleged burglar who did not appear to be carrying the "spoils" and who would probably would not have been charged anyway with what we know now.
- Directly commits the crime;
- Intentionally causes some other person to commit the crime under such circumstances that the other person is not guilty of any crime either in fact or because of legal incapacity;
- Intentionally aids or abets in the commission of the crime; or
- Intentionally advises, encourages, hires, counsels, or procures another to commit the crime.
Any such tactical decisions can only be described as pigheaded stupidity and all three of the individuals in the posse are going to pay the piper for it.
GREAT breakdown of the 'incident'.
My counterplay is that the dead guy was "dead right" and should be alive ------ if he did not ATTACK A MAN WITH A GUN,that was not appearently pointed / aimed at him.
I can take either side and have a great argument with myself "-)
But my legal mind says the 2 or 3 involved citizens were 'dead wrong' in attempting to play LEO.
This has played out on screen too many times to not see how it ends.
Arrests,criminal record,COURT EXPENSES [ tens of THOUSANDS ] and your face all over the news for at least a year.
And if by luck and chance your exonerated = the press will barely mention it.
You pull that trigger , and the rest of your ENTIRE LIFE will be on hold for a year or ten.
It better be your ONLY & LAST CHOICE.
2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS
ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
§ 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest
O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
I see a "presumption" of a pursuit & arrest !.@boom boom , I’d like to hear your interpretation of the Georgia statute on citizen’s arrest:
It seems improbable to claim that the accused had knowledge of a felony (because it didn’t exist - at worst under Georgia statute, Arbery’s presence at the construction sit (as evidenced by the surveillance footage) was a misdemeanor. At best - if there weren’t any “No Trespassing” signs - it wasn’t a crime at all). Without the knowledge of a felony, their pursuit (and subsequent attempt at apprehension) was not justified under Georgia law. “Suspicion” of a felony isn’t the same as the “knowledge” of a felony required under the statute.
(There’s a woman in jail in Georgia awaiting trial for manslaughter after following a hit and run driver that ended in a shooting, Her claim of citizen’s arrest was rejected because it was only a misdemeanor, not a felony.)
@boom boom , I’d like to hear your interpretation of the Georgia statute on citizen’s arrest:
It seems improbable to claim that the accused had knowledge of a felony (because it didn’t exist - at worst under Georgia statute, Arbery’s presence at the construction sit (as evidenced by the surveillance footage) was a misdemeanor. At best - if there weren’t any “No Trespassing” signs - it wasn’t a crime at all). Without the knowledge of a felony, their pursuit (and subsequent attempt at apprehension) was not justified under Georgia law. “Suspicion” of a felony isn’t the same as the “knowledge” of a felony required under the statute.
(There’s a woman in jail in Georgia awaiting trial for manslaughter after following a hit and run driver that ended in a shooting, Her claim of citizen’s arrest was rejected because it was only a misdemeanor, not a felony.)