So Strategies, Tactics, & Training.

To question 3, I would recommend for the serious finding a recognized trainer who can offer a series of courses from beginning to advanced. Here's an example from a good friend and recognized trainer:

https://krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/classes.html

Notice it goes from basic to advanced.

You need to discern if the trainer is legit and not spewing out 'commando crappola'. One indication is whether the trainer can document taking advanced classes in training, such as from Mas Ayoob or Tom Givens.

It is also recommended that one take and/or study the legal aspects of use of force, with materials from those like Ayoob. There are others but I know Mas.

Finally, practice beyond the square range is important. It does help for technique but two things help:

1. FOF - done well this points out how incidents are not the square range. It has to be scripted and refereed. It can very intense. Finding such may be expensive. It is very stressful and skilled folks can show the stress. However, that is good for stress inoculation - an important part of realistic simulation training. You may get hurt at bit. It also should stress the personal interactions of scenarios, everything is not a shoot. It should deal with pre attack indicators and after shooting (if it occurs) processes. How to deal with witnesses and the law? A good trauma oriented first aid course helps.
2. Competition - The two major relevant sports are IDPA and USPSA. There is a giant debate about which is best - blah, blah. Leave that to the gamers. Neither is 'training' and they say so explicitly. However, they let you shoot in manners not allowed on the square range, on the move, at various distances, reloads, malfunction clearage, trigger control, reloads and stress. Over time, you get these basics down, so if God forbid, you are in trouble, you have these tech skills at the level of unconscious competence. The gun jams - you know what to do, for example.

If you can, find ones that also allow shotgun and carbine (like 3 gun or dedicate shotgun or carbine matches). Run those a few times to help decide the debate over which long gun is for you in an SD situation.

Steel is fun for fast technique practice, not that 'tactical'.

That's my take on training. Done a lot of it. Winding down as age and health is precluding rolling around on the ground and getting bruised up.

The Hand Gunner said:

Just going to start this by simply asking 3 questions,

[Edited by Moderator]


& what training have you had in regards to any and all weapons you've come into contact with?

Click to expand...

My list is rather lengthy ,and about 55 + years long.
So rather than brag,or bore anyone.
Suffice it to say that most any 'tool' that I might use or acquire for a S/D scenario,I can account for my training and even some moments when I taught it.
Would love to ask the OP why he is curious.

I did take a couple of knife courses, one from a Janich associate. Of course, I got hurt. One fun thing is to develop spectacular bruises and then have to explain them at work to those who think such activities are suspect. Not really relevant though.

Kleanbore said:

I found this very worthwhile.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/combat-focus-shooting/

It is not as good as FoF training, but I am no longer fit enough for strenuous training.

Click to expand...

I have watched MANY of the "video's that Janich & Pincus have done.

Not a one has convinced me that they have 'been & done' anything.

And having just finished a hands on course [ at the age of 71 then,now 72 ] I am not about to follow or take the word of those that I have not seen doing what those I trust have actually done.

Many will dispute my FIRM belief,if your going to teach LIFE & DEATH matters to others,your life should have been on the line too.

Managed to live in NYC for a few decades,then became an LEO for a few more,during my 72 years I have trained and taught martial arts including gun & blade.

BUT,put my teachings as gospel to as many as they have done = never,too much of a conscience .= just my OPINIONS.

Rant off = let the flaming begin

My training has been very limited. In the Corps M1, M14, M6, M1911. All four required annual marksmanship qualification. Additionally we trained with bayonets and knives as well as H2H. Hands are a weapon as can be rocks, logs, etc. so we trained on alternately available weapons. Since the the only training I have taken is for the Venter Axix Relock gunfighting system. Having been in interior and exterior CQB I believed that most other training wpi;d have value but It did not seem to me to be based upon the way gunfights usually happen in civilian life.

It's probably impractical to insist that your instructor has won gunfights IRL. There would be two pools (with some overlap, natch)- guys that were in the military and those with LEO and/or private citizen gunfights. The former would almost certainly be interesting but if I get in a gunfight I won't have Interceptor body armor, air & artillery support nor a squad of guys watching my back. I probably won't have a full auto M4, either. Tactics used by a soldier may also get me arrested stateside. As appealing as the notion sounds at times I will not be able to lob a grenade into my living room and follow the BOOM with my guns blazing. In the other camp the vast majority of cops never fire their weapon at anyone. One ex-LEO member here described a pretty long career with exactly one on-duty shooting. If you're talking non-LEO the list gets even shorter. If he's still alive we have the jewelry store owner that killed half a dozen men in at least three separate incidents. There aren't many others that have deep broad gunfighting experience. Just surviving a gunfight doesn't necessarily give one a lot of insight into gunfighting. Take the mother who retreated to her attic during a home invasion. When the BG popped his head up the ladder she shot him in the face six times with a .38 revolver; all the bullets deflected on his facial bones and rode round his skull, exiting the skin on the back. He fled and drove away (!) and was later apprehended. She survived as did the BG but I'm not sure what she could teach us about gunfighting except that maybe you need a more potent gun.

There are also lots of women and men that are great at a skill but not great at teaching. It's interesting that in the world of sports some of the best coaches and trainers were not great at their chosen sports. Teaching is an underrated skill! A gifted teacher is a wonder to behold and a joy to work with. Most of us have experienced learning under a teacher that helped mold and shape our lives.

scaatylobo said:

I have watched MANY of the "video's that Janich & Pincus have done.

Not a one has convinced me that they have 'been & done' anything.

Click to expand...

OMG, here we go again!

Mr. Pincus' bio / credentials are easy enough to find. So are the names of some of the organizations who endorse his methods.

He seems to prefer promoting his ideas instead of his resume. That's much better than can be said about a lot of people running around making money being trainers.

Edit to add: "endorse" is technically inaccurate. "Trained in" would be more correct.

11B OSUT, SF Weapons Course, 4 different sniper courses, Sniper instructor course,Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat course, HK armorer course, Crane armorer course, HK tac-carbine course, State Dept. world-wide protective services course, SERE, hand to hand (LINES) instructor course, SPEAR hand to hand training, Dieter hand to hand course, Modern Army Combatives course, and at least 2 other courses that I won't mention here.

If the only qualifying fact about a potential trainer is whether or not they've seen action then most of us are doomed.

I say train as best you can with whom you have researched and deemed worthy. That's all one can do.

And for goodness sake dont worry about what other folks think about it, BUT keep an open mind to new training.

The Hand Gunner said:

Just going to start this by simply asking 3 questions,

[Edited by Moderator]


& what training have you had in regards to any and all weapons you've come into contact with?

Click to expand...

My first formal training was at the Houston Police Academy, in Texas, 1983-1984; the standard DA revolver curriculum, which was actually quite good, and basic pump shotgun instruction, which was, well, basic. The mandated firearms updates courses, from time to time, were decent. It was the optional courses, which filled quickly, which were quite good, to excellent. These included a rather advanced two-gun, which combined Advanced Pistol and Tactical Shotgun into a multi-day course, Advanced Revolver, shotgun Select Slug, 40-hour Patrol Carbine, Active Shooter Response, which included breaching procedures, The 1911/2011 course, and, best of all, the late 2016 version of Advanced Shotgun, which, with Super Bowl about to come to town, and the then-current tendency of terrorists, in Europe to hijack trucks and drive them into crowds, was a deadly-serious course, which I will not publicly discuss in further detail, as it was not intended for public consumption. (I want to preserve my “honorably retired” status.)

I attended Shivworks ECQC in 2005 and 2006, on my own dime. Excellent! This is live fire, as well as force-on-force, in separate sessions. (Be physically fit, for this one! Especially core/ab development, and ability to keep fighting hard, for an extended period, without becoming winded, in order to derive maximum benefit from the training.)

I attended the Snubby Summit, a one-time event, in 2005. The live-fire part was a condensed version of Michael de Bethencourt’s snub revolver class.

I attended several seminar-type blade training events, on my own dime, in the early several years of the century. The main idea was to learn how to survive and prevail if attacked with a blade, rather than use a blade as my choice of weapon. IIRC, the event with Bram Frank was a one-day class, though if may may been two days. I attended two, two-day events with Steve Tarani, one oriented toward straight-blades, and one being karambit instruction. IIRC, we could wear inert pistols, in holsters, in at least one of those classes, to make the training more relevant relevant.

None of this makes me any kind of expert.

Kleanbore said:

I do not carry a blade, but if I did, I know enough to know that I would want to attend a Michael Janich seminar.

https://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/seminar-schedule

Click to expand...

I am fortunate enough - or was, before the end of the world - to have a Janich-approved MBC trainer at my local Krav/Muay Thai gym. I hope to go back again after the world stops ending - it was worthwhile.

Anyway, Janich still has my deposit for the camp that didn't quite happen...

Now, with regard to receiving training only from those who have "Seen the elephant": I personally only know two. One is an instructor. I value his lessons, but he honestly is not a great instructor. The other is a student who only got into training because as a completely untrained man with a gun he won against the bad guy due solely to - in his own words - "blind luck and whatever god looks out for drunks and fools".

I personally am happy to take a lesson from whoever offers one. Then I take whatever I have been shown, consider its use in a real-life scenario, and apply or discard whatever portions seem appropriate.

.38 Special said:

Now, with regard to receiving training only from those who have "Seen the elephant": I personally only know two. One is an instructor. I value his lessons, but he honestly is not a great instructor. The other is a student he only got into training because, as a completely untrained man with a gun, he won against the bad guy due solely to - in his own words - "blind luck and whatever god looks out for drunks and fools".

Click to expand...

I know an gifted instructor that got the same start! He prevailed in a gun battle due to (in his words) pure luck and vowed to be better prepared if it ever happened again.

Phaedrus/69 said:

I know an gifted instructor that got the same start! He prevailed in a gun battle due to (in his words) pure luck and vowed to be better prepared if it ever happened again.

Click to expand...

It would not surprise me to learn that those folks can make into extraordinary instructors. I believe Il Ling New, of Gunsite, is one of them. I would very much like to take a lesson from her.

With regard to the OP's original question:

I started as a gun guy. I competed in a bunch of different handgun disciplines. That taught me how to shoot. It also mislead me to believe that knowing how to shoot was synonymous with knowing how to defend myself.

When my boys got close to their teen years I researched various self-defense techniques and decided Krav Maga was the most realistic, so I enrolled them. After watching their classes - and some of the adult ones as well - I was surprised to discover that I was intimidated. With a bit of thought I realized that the solution was to enroll myself. Krav led to Muay Thai, and amateur competition, and force-on-force, and whatever is to follow.

I am no kind of expert in any of it, and I am now old enough that I am beginning to weigh training injuries against the possibility of ever needing to use my training. I was enjoying knife training if for no other reason than that it mostly involved standing around and waving my arms - although I do have that interesting scar on my wrist now...

If nothing else, through all of that training I have learned that A) the gun is no panacea, and B) if you have no choice but to fight, offer a few moments of overwhelming violence and then run like hell.