mustanger98
Member
Yeah.
I've heard both. Actually, I've pronounced it both ways at different times. Considering the French and German, I think the former is a pretty safe assumption, but you know what they say about that.
Carbine a compact rifle?
- Thread starter FlSwampRat
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Yeah.
I've heard both. Actually, I've pronounced it both ways at different times. Considering the French and German, I think the former is a pretty safe assumption, but you know what they say about that.
Alaskan Ironworker
Member
This is a “grizzly bear” vs. “brown bear” thing. They are the same thing. One is a little bigger. If your rifle feels short and handy to you, you might have a carbine! Silly thing to argue about.
danez71
Member
This illustrates how the 2A is defined differently.
It also illustrates why p/n's are used.
I think of cabrine as more of a type, or style, similar to how I view a sports car.
Sports cars can be RWD, FWD, 4WD, different # of cylinders, aspiration (even electric), etc etc.
I also don't get bent out of shape about clip and mag.
It also illustrates why p/n's are used.
I think of cabrine as more of a type, or style, similar to how I view a sports car.
Sports cars can be RWD, FWD, 4WD, different # of cylinders, aspiration (even electric), etc etc.
I also don't get bent out of shape about clip and mag.
Pudge
Member
If, according to Ruger, the PC Carbine is an autoloading rifle, can a Ranch Rifle be a carbine?
Just my impression, but it was always my understanding that a "carbine " was a smaller, or shorter version of a long rifle. As in, a Mosin M-44 could be considered as a carbine of the Mosin-Nagant rifle type, as it is 8 inches shorter than the 91-30. A Mini 14 could be considered to be a carbine of the Garand family.
Pudge
Member
But how does the PC Carbine earn its name if there's no longer "rifle" version?
I guess my point is that the industry standard is a bit nebulous, and use of the term might not be governed by terms as clear as those dictating when to use "less" and "fewer", or "well" and "good", and actually of even less consequence.
I guess my point is that the industry standard is a bit nebulous, and use of the term might not be governed by terms as clear as those dictating when to use "less" and "fewer", or "well" and "good", and actually of even less consequence.
Well from a legal stand point in the US...
When I was growing up, a rifle with less then 20" barrel was referred to a as carbine, however if said rifle was also chambered for a handgun cartridge, that was especially considered a carbine... But nothing was set in stone back then or even now...
Personally due to my size and lack of upper body strength, I perfer lighter and shorter rifles anyway... No M1A for me thank you.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I don't have time to dig into this deeper, but food for thought.
In the USA, the federal government has a legal definition for Short Barrel Rifles (SBR), which I believe refers to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm, made from a rifle, with a barrel length of less than 16 in or overall length of less than 26 in, or a handgun fitted with a buttstock and a barrel of less than 16 inches length.
Because of that, I'd guess "carbine" is simply a name for describing a shorter than contemporary rifle model whether that "carbine" is actually based off a longer rifle or not.
Not enough coffee for me yet. FYI.
In the USA, the federal government has a legal definition for Short Barrel Rifles (SBR), which I believe refers to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm, made from a rifle, with a barrel length of less than 16 in or overall length of less than 26 in, or a handgun fitted with a buttstock and a barrel of less than 16 inches length.
Because of that, I'd guess "carbine" is simply a name for describing a shorter than contemporary rifle model whether that "carbine" is actually based off a longer rifle or not.
Not enough coffee for me yet. FYI.
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Tommygunn
Member
Now .... Uh, I have a Uberti 1873 Winchester saddle ring carbine.... and same manufacture 1873 short rifle.
The carbine is longer than the short rifle. So shouldn't the short rifle actually be a carbine/carbine?
Never mind ....
The carbine is longer than the short rifle. So shouldn't the short rifle actually be a carbine/carbine?
Never mind ....
cdb1
Member
I don’t care about the minutiae. For me:
AR: if it has a buttstock it’s a rifle no matter the barrel length
Lever gun: if the barrel is 20” or less it’s a carbine, longer than 20” is a rifle
Bolt action: it’s a rifle no matter the barrel length
In addition anyone is welcome to use my definitions with no need to cite my name when put in print.
AR: if it has a buttstock it’s a rifle no matter the barrel length
Lever gun: if the barrel is 20” or less it’s a carbine, longer than 20” is a rifle
Bolt action: it’s a rifle no matter the barrel length
In addition anyone is welcome to use my definitions with no need to cite my name when put in print.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Let’s see what others say about the term “carbine”, shall we?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carbine
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/carbine
If you search the BATF for “carbine definition” you are referred to a page that describes various rifles, even Short Barreled Rifles that are much shorter than guns referred to as “carbines”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carbine
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/carbine
If you search the BATF for “carbine definition” you are referred to a page that describes various rifles, even Short Barreled Rifles that are much shorter than guns referred to as “carbines”.
WestKentucky
Member
Rifle... full sized gun for shooting at range. Carbine... shorter handier gun resembling a rifle but more compact, and typically much lighter.
Saddle ring carbine fits. Jungle Carbine fits. M4 fits. Ruger PCC fits. Keltec carbines all fit.
Saddle ring carbine fits. Jungle Carbine fits. M4 fits. Ruger PCC fits. Keltec carbines all fit.
Riomouse911
Member
That’s kinda where I see it. A carbine is just a lighter and handier rifle.
Stay safe.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I always looked at the carbine as a handier firearm to be used inside 100 yards. A woods gun like the 20" barrel model 94 Winchester, quick to bring up and shoot.
mustanger98
Member
Ruger said so. It's trade marked.
PC Carbine™
"Politically Correct" Carbine.
Yeah, I know...
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
First and foremost, this doesn't have to be an argument. It's just a discussion about what many consider to be meaningless minutiae. Which is kinda what we're about, discussing fine details most don't care about. Especially when we're all stuck at home. So try not to take it too seriously.
In general, there is no all-encompassing, set definition of "carbine". Never was, never will be. The parameters are rather loose and it changes depending on the type of firearm you're talking about. It wasn't my intention to set rules for what does or does not constitute a carbine or a rifle for all firearm types. However, in terms of leverguns, it is pretty concise, or at least it used to be. Whether folks care or not about the differences or not, they are there. I dare anyone to handle a 20" octagon barreled "rifle" and a 20" saddle ring carbine and convince themselves that they're the same. They're not, no more than a 20" M16 is the same as a 16" M4. To refer to a 16" "short rifle" as a carbine is simply incorrect. As it would be to refer to a 20" carbine as a "short rifle".
This one has a 20" barrel. Some would call it a carbine based on barrel length alone. Winchester would've called it a short rifle. It is literally a rifle that was chopped to 20" but identical to a factory "short rifle". If you handle it side by side with a 20" saddle ring carbine, you'd instantly be able to tell the difference. The carbine is over a pound lighter and the less pointy buttplate allows it to settle on the shoulder much quicker. Even if you don't care about the handling aspect of it, the completely different features cannot be ignored. Or maybe the fact that very few can seem to look past the barrel length is why modern leverguns are so mixed up.
Here's my 1866 short rifle .44Spl. Wouldn't you have been upset if you had ordered a short rifle and a carbine showed up? Do you consider both carbines or is there more to it than that?
For the folks that think the only requirement for a "carbine" is to chamber a pistol cartridge, what about this one? Still a carbine, or is there more to it than that?
In general, there is no all-encompassing, set definition of "carbine". Never was, never will be. The parameters are rather loose and it changes depending on the type of firearm you're talking about. It wasn't my intention to set rules for what does or does not constitute a carbine or a rifle for all firearm types. However, in terms of leverguns, it is pretty concise, or at least it used to be. Whether folks care or not about the differences or not, they are there. I dare anyone to handle a 20" octagon barreled "rifle" and a 20" saddle ring carbine and convince themselves that they're the same. They're not, no more than a 20" M16 is the same as a 16" M4. To refer to a 16" "short rifle" as a carbine is simply incorrect. As it would be to refer to a 20" carbine as a "short rifle".
This one has a 20" barrel. Some would call it a carbine based on barrel length alone. Winchester would've called it a short rifle. It is literally a rifle that was chopped to 20" but identical to a factory "short rifle". If you handle it side by side with a 20" saddle ring carbine, you'd instantly be able to tell the difference. The carbine is over a pound lighter and the less pointy buttplate allows it to settle on the shoulder much quicker. Even if you don't care about the handling aspect of it, the completely different features cannot be ignored. Or maybe the fact that very few can seem to look past the barrel length is why modern leverguns are so mixed up.
Here's my 1866 short rifle .44Spl. Wouldn't you have been upset if you had ordered a short rifle and a carbine showed up? Do you consider both carbines or is there more to it than that?
For the folks that think the only requirement for a "carbine" is to chamber a pistol cartridge, what about this one? Still a carbine, or is there more to it than that?
mustanger98
Member
Now .... Uh, I have a Uberti 1873 Winchester saddle ring carbine.... and same manufacture 1873 short rifle.
The carbine is longer than the short rifle. So shouldn't the short rifle actually be a carbine/carbine?
Never mind ....
I'm thinking the short rifle don't have barrel bands... mag tube screwed to the barrel out front?
Sistema1927
Member
I may not be able to adequately define "carbine", but I know one when I see it.
My understanding is that carbines were developed for mounted troops as well as for those whose role on the battlefield would be impeded by carrying the larger rifle.
My understanding is that carbines were developed for mounted troops as well as for those whose role on the battlefield would be impeded by carrying the larger rifle.
mustanger98
Member
And regarding reference to buttplates in post #42, I read that Theodore Roosevelt ordered all his Winchesters... regardless of rifle vs short rifle vs carbine... with shotgun style buttplates. Much better in general, IMO, and not incorrect to the period because Roosevelt did it during the period.
Okay, then there's the U.S. Krag... the "Rough Riders" would've had carbines because although they operated on foot in Cuba, "we trained as cavalry!!!!" as Tom Berrenger played the scene. And I have had occasion to examine Krag rifles and carbines which chambered the same .30-40 Krag round... the differences are rather obvious. But, regarding then-Col. Roosevelt in Cuba, he had a Winchester Model 1895 in .30-40Krag, which was known as .30Govt at the time.
Okay, then there's the U.S. Krag... the "Rough Riders" would've had carbines because although they operated on foot in Cuba, "we trained as cavalry!!!!" as Tom Berrenger played the scene. And I have had occasion to examine Krag rifles and carbines which chambered the same .30-40 Krag round... the differences are rather obvious. But, regarding then-Col. Roosevelt in Cuba, he had a Winchester Model 1895 in .30-40Krag, which was known as .30Govt at the time.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Back then you could special order whatever you wanted. The shotgun butt, for practical purposes, was really the best option. It was faster than the rifle "crescent" but larger and more comfortable than the carbine. Which is probably why it's so prevalent today. The 1895 is another example that had carbine-specific features on the military .30-40 model.
Jim Watson
Member
Hey, you're speaking English, but haven't specified the dialect.
Military Carbine = short form of rifle, 1833 Hall to M4. Aberration, M1 Carbine not based on M1 Rifle.
Lever action carbine = distinctive buttplate, foreend barrel band, there are short rifles with same length barrel.
PCC = modern fad of Pistol Caliber Carbine, a semiautomatic shoulder weapon firing pistol ammunition.
Note that Winchester did not call the 20" model 70 a carbine.
Military Carbine = short form of rifle, 1833 Hall to M4. Aberration, M1 Carbine not based on M1 Rifle.
Lever action carbine = distinctive buttplate, foreend barrel band, there are short rifles with same length barrel.
PCC = modern fad of Pistol Caliber Carbine, a semiautomatic shoulder weapon firing pistol ammunition.
Note that Winchester did not call the 20" model 70 a carbine.
commygun
Member
Frankly, a goofy thing to argue about. All modern carbines are rifles*. And a rifle is a carbine if I find it to be relatively light, short, and handy.
*Well, just to muddy the semantic waters, a short barreled smooth bore shotgun with rifle sights used to fire slugs would be functionally a carbine but definitely not a rifle. I'm so confused...
*Well, just to muddy the semantic waters, a short barreled smooth bore shotgun with rifle sights used to fire slugs would be functionally a carbine but definitely not a rifle. I'm so confused...
Ed Ames
Member
I think the word has multiple meanings, depending on context - like most words.
It started as a shorthand for a particular role/use case. Sort of like “paratrooper”, “tanker”, “Personal Defense”, and similar terms. A weapon designed for a particular type of fighting.
Then, largely due to details of manufacturing and supply chains, it morphed into a term describing a cut down version of an existing rifle. Since the word was used that way in military bureaucracies it’s not surprising that some people have tried to say it’s the only possible meaning. That’s how bureaucrats and their sympathizers think. Humanity went through at least 100 years of bureaucrats as the primary purchasers of small arms.
Since that time, bureaucrats have become less of a factor in the arms market. A large part of the small arms market today is individual civilians, and to us the details of how a small arm is designed or manufactured is far less important than how we will use it, so the role-driven definition has come back to the foreground. It now means a small handy rifle intended for roles where ultimate efficiency isn’t as important as compactness. As a result, at this point the word is at least two meanings removed from the original meaning of “carbine” but is - in one sense at least - actually closer to the original usage.
If you are speaking of military rifles, it’s reasonable to say that a carbine is only a carbine if the bureaucrats who originally ordered them would have used the term, and that generally will mean it’s a cut down version of an infantry rifle. Even then if you go back far enough you’ll be using the word incorrectly, but you’ll generally have it right.
Outside of the military bureaucracy context, what matters is the intended use case.
It started as a shorthand for a particular role/use case. Sort of like “paratrooper”, “tanker”, “Personal Defense”, and similar terms. A weapon designed for a particular type of fighting.
Then, largely due to details of manufacturing and supply chains, it morphed into a term describing a cut down version of an existing rifle. Since the word was used that way in military bureaucracies it’s not surprising that some people have tried to say it’s the only possible meaning. That’s how bureaucrats and their sympathizers think. Humanity went through at least 100 years of bureaucrats as the primary purchasers of small arms.
Since that time, bureaucrats have become less of a factor in the arms market. A large part of the small arms market today is individual civilians, and to us the details of how a small arm is designed or manufactured is far less important than how we will use it, so the role-driven definition has come back to the foreground. It now means a small handy rifle intended for roles where ultimate efficiency isn’t as important as compactness. As a result, at this point the word is at least two meanings removed from the original meaning of “carbine” but is - in one sense at least - actually closer to the original usage.
If you are speaking of military rifles, it’s reasonable to say that a carbine is only a carbine if the bureaucrats who originally ordered them would have used the term, and that generally will mean it’s a cut down version of an infantry rifle. Even then if you go back far enough you’ll be using the word incorrectly, but you’ll generally have it right.
Outside of the military bureaucracy context, what matters is the intended use case.
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