Reloading for a Conversion Cylinder...

You are not loading round ball?
If you are using conicals in a bp revolver.... typical weights range from 165 grains to 230 grains ... if using black powder as propellant
I am not sure about the period correct weight of the conicals ....
Conversion cylinder is .44-40?

gcleff11 said:

...., but I am wondering from the experts if there is a ceiling as to bullet weight? I want to buy the correct molds for casting, and I don't want to make a mistake in regards, to well...everything. I get what, 'Cowboy' loads are. The first time I fire it, I want the gun--and the human--to be okay. Yes, I'm still in novice mode. But I shoot with younger people, with whom I want to teach/pass on important skills, safely. Thanks in advance...

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At the time I bought my .45 Colt conversion cylinder, I put it on an old Armi San Marco copy of a Remington 1858. Cylinder directions read...,only use factory loads for Cowboy Action Shooting, or black powder cartridges. They didn't want people to be reloading their own ammunition for the cylinders, probably because of their inability to control the individual, and user error might lead to somebody overloading a cartridge.

So there were three bullets one could find back then..., 200 grain, 230 grain, and 250 grain. Today you can find a 225 grain and I think also a 160 grain bullet, as well as a 255 grain bullet, if not in factory ammunition for CAS, you can find the molds for them. So I'd say keep your "top end" on bullet weight 250-255 grains, but I'd suggest that you think about using or reloading bullets in the 200-230 grain range. They work just fine, and you don't get any "points" for recoil. I'd venture to guess, that the Lee Mold offering in 160 grains is specifically for CAS shooting to get the lowest recoil.

So what I did was look up Hodgdon's data on pyrodex cartridges, and .45 Colt. I used the pressure ranges in that data and compared it to Hodgdon data and pressures for .45 Colt using smokeless powder, and made sure my loads were well under the pressures listed for the black powder substitute. That way, I figured, I would not exceed any pressure limits in the cylinder. So far it's worked well.

That's what I did. What you choose to do, reload or buy factory CAS ammo, is up to you.

LD

Also consider accuracy. I find that the lighter bullets are more accurate in my pietta 1858. I totally gave up on 250 grain. Perhaps a faster twist barrel would work better for heavier bullets..?

this is what i shoot in my conversions and several of the uberti colts i have. fill the case with blackhorn 209 as you would fill it with black powder. do not compress. fill to just behind the bullet. then a 60 thousands firm fiber or poly wad. this gas seals it. the put a slightly over sized round ball that has been rolled in lee alox and dried to the ball in the case on top of the wad. then roll crimp over the end of the round ball. it is fast, very very very accurate and light recoil. young people will love shooting that load as will you. the accuracy will hook you to it also. would not be afraid to use it as a self defence load also. it fast and accurate and light recoil. fun to shoot. i have used triple 7 in my cowboy 38 special loads with the round ball in them also but with the 45 long colt and 44/40 i stick to blackhorn 209 powder. easy claen up and no rust. those 44/40 loaded like that really snap out their. a good easy to handle self defence load. very accurate also.

gcleff11 said:

Thanks to all. I should have added more info. My conversion cylinder is 45 ACP, not long Colt. I have purchased two conical molds, both .452; 160 gr and 230 gr, respectively. And I have a sizer/lube for the bullets. So if I reload my 45 ACP brass, I'm I using black powder, and not what I normally use reloading for my autos (W231)??? And it sounds like I now need a roll crimp die. What the heck have I got myself in to, haha? Those conversion cylinders are not cheap...

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You're quite welcome. Yes 231 is probably a bit more than what you'd want.

OH you can look at the load data for .45 Schofield and get a good idea on real Black Powder loads for the .45 ACP..., IF..., you don't find data for that cartridge and black powder. If you're not competing with the revolver you likely won't get it so dirty that you contemplate going to smokeless loads, but if you do, again, compare the black powder substitute powder loads and pressures to the smokeless powders.

LD

make sure you use a 60 thousands thick stiff fiber or poly wad between the base of the bullet and the powder. if not, good chance you will get leading in the barrel. the wad prevents that. the wad keeps the hot gasses from the base of the bullet.

With BP loads or even appropriate light smokeless loads, gas checks should be unnecessary. If you are using grease grooves bullets with a proper BP lube, no need for extra lube or a lubed wad either.

for BP loads, fill case with drop tube such that seating the bullet to desired depth would slightly compress the powder - like 1/10" max. A simple card wad of .455" (Circle Fly makes 'em; Track of the Wolf, BPI and others sell 'em) seated on the powder with a dowel ahead of the bullet will offer some protection for the bullet base. IF you subsequently feel more lube is needed, a little ball dropped on the card wad before seating the bullet will do. Use soft lead, 20:1 is the hardest you want.

I don't hold with smokeless powder in conversion cylinders but the "experts" assure us any smokeless load is absolutely fine in a black powder proofed gun that the conversion cylinder manufacturer has restricted to Cowboy Action loads. So, if using smokeless, stick to soft lead and very light loads of powder would be my advice. The "experts" may be along to offer hot-rod advice...

gcleff11 said:

Thanks to all. I should have added more info. My conversion cylinder is 45 ACP, not long Colt. I have purchased two conical molds, both .452; 160 gr and 230 gr, respectively. And I have a sizer/lube for the bullets. So if I reload my 45 ACP brass, Am I using black powder, and not what I normally use reloading for my autos (W231)??? And it sounds like I now need a roll crimp die. What the heck have I got myself in to, haha? Those conversion cylinders are not cheap...

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I don't know of anyone who uses black powder in .45 ACP, but the cylinders are designed to work with smokeless loads and LEAD bullets only. Lead bullets has more to do with the frames not being strong enough to handle jacketed bullets, plated ones like what Berry's makes... that's a good question, but I doubt even plated bullets are recommended.

If you do smokeless, do use starting load data and work up very slowly.

I was told by the manufacturer that .45 Colt can go up to 1000 fps no problem with the Taylor's conversion cylinder in an 1858, not sure if that was with 200 or 250, but it sounded like 250, which means they can do a max charge for standard pressure loads. .45 Colt pressures are quite a bit lower than .45 ACP, so that's why I recommend you use starting loads first.

Howdy

I have a couple of 1858 Remingtons with 45 Colt conversion cylinders. Mine are the six chamber style, I suspect your Howell conversion for 45 ACP is only five chambers. That is because Howell patented the slightly angled chambers for 45 Colt in the 1858 Remington, because the rims are too large for six chambers in a cylinder the size of the 1858 Remington. Howell sold his patent to Taylors number of years ago, who has exclusive rights to make a six chambered cylinder for the 1858 Remington in large calibers, so he is restricted to only putting five chambers in his large caliber cylinders for the 1858 Remington.








All that aside, if you are going to be using either real Black Powder or Pyrodex in your cartridges you will need to use a Black Powder compatible bullet lube. I used to do all that stuff about putting lube cookies under my bullets in my BP cartridges, and made my own BP lube with Crisco and Beeswax, and pan lubed standard hard cast bullets to get rid of the factory lube and relubed them with my BP lube. Then I discovered the Big Lube series of Black Powder bullets that have a huge lube groove to carry enough BP compatible lube to keep the barrel of a rifle coated with lube for its entire length. I never used lube cookies again.

Here is a photo of one of my BP 44-40 loads on the left and one of my BP 45 Colt loads on the right. Next to each round is the appropriate Big Lube bullet, with and without lube, demonstrating how much lube each bullet carries.

I used to shoot these 45 Colt rounds in my Remingtons all the time.






Because the frame is so thin in the area where the loading ram passes through the frame, and because the grip of a Remington is a little bit more uncomfortable than a Colt SAA, I eventually started shooting 45 Schofield ammunition in my Remmies. The Schofield round being shorter than the Colt round, it holds less powder.






In fact, I designed a Big Lube bullet specifically for the 45 Schofield cartridge. At the time the only Big Lube bullet available for 45 Colt was the 250 grain PRS bullet. I designed a 200 grain bullet which would generate less recoil than the 250 grain bullet, and coupled with the 45 Schofield case, it made a pretty good cartridge for my 45 Colt Remingtons.

The bullet became known as the J/P 45-200, for Johnson and my collaborator whose name was Peterson. Here is a photo of one of my 45 Schofield rounds and the components that go into it. The bullet is the original version of the J/P 45-200.




I would suggest you look into the J/P 45-200 for your Black Powder 45 ACP ammunition. If you don't want to cast them yourself you can buy lubed and sized bullets here:

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

I used to cast, lube and size my own bullets, but these days I buy them. The J/P 45-200 is dead center on the page. The shape has undergone some slight changes since when I used to cast them myself, the nose is not quite so flat as mine were.

Here is a photo of all the Black Powder cartridges I load. Left to right they are 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, 38-40, 44-40, and 45 Colt. They all have big lube bullets in them. The 45-70 on the right is the only BP cartridge I load with bullets other than Big Lube bullets.






Here is a photo of the bullets used in these cartridges. All are Big Lube except the 405 grain 45-70 round second from the right, and the standard hard cast 45 Colt round on the far right, illustrating how skimpy the lube grove is in a standard hard cast bullet.






I am not sue if you can use the 45 Cowboy Special in your cylinder, it is a rimmed cartridge, with a rim the same dimensions as the 45 Colt rim. Is your cylinder counterbored for rims? If not, you cannot use the 45 Cowboy Special round. The 45 CS has the same internal capacity as a 45 ACP, and the same Smokeless loading data can be used. The only difference is the 45 Cowboy Special has a rim just like the 45 Colt.

This photo shows several 45 Caliber cartridges. Left to right they are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.

Yes, if you want to load 45 CS you should really use a die that forms a roll crimp. You can use standard 45 ACP dies for decapping, sizing, and belling the case mouth. You can use a 45 Colt die to seat and crimp.






If you don't want to mess with soft BP compatible lube you can load using American Pioneer Powder (APP). It is a BP substitute that does not require BP specific bullet lube, standard bullet lube in standard hard cast bullets works fine with APP.


Regarding a drop tube: I have been loading Black Powder in all of these cartridges for a long time. There is no advantage to using a drop tube for these cartridges. I just pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder between 1/16" -1/8". That's all there is to it, it is really that simple. The only cartridge I use a drop tube for is 45-70.

Regarding Smokeless powder in these cylinders: Understand it is the cylinder, not the frame or barrel that must be able to withstand the pressure generated when a cartridge fires. Not the frame and not the barrel. My cylinders were made of 4150 arsenal grade steel and the caps are made from 4140 steel. I would be surprised if Howell was using a steel inferior to these.

Regarding pressure generated by Cowboy Ammunition: There is no SAAMI standard for Cowboy Ammunition. You will often hear it stated that a velocity of so many feet per second is achieved by certain ammunition. It is too much pressure, not velocity, that bursts cylinders. Stating velocity means nothing since even with the same weight of bullet the same velocity can be achieved with different powders resulting in widely different pressure.

If I had your 45ACP cylinders I would be loading my ammo with Black Powder and the 45 J/P 200 bullet. No, I do not get any money, I designed the bullet for free, for the Black Powder shooting community, I have never made a penny off of it. If I wanted to load Smokeless I would be using lead bullets with the minimal recommended powder charge from any recognized published loading manual.

the purpose of the 60 thousands stiff wad is to not let gas by the bullet to lead the barrel. gas checks do that also i think as ive never used them. greased wool is good but adding a wad infront of it wont hurt as nothing gets by a wad. wads clean the bore some also. i leaded a real colt saa 45 long colts barrel once with real black powder, was not a fun job cleaning the barrel. never had a problem since ive used wads. their are many right ways to load and you will find one. just dont lead your barrel.

those are well lubed good looking bullets. they should work very well.

Catman42 said:

the purpose of the 60 thousands stiff wad is to not let gas by the bullet to lead the barrel. gas checks do that also i think as ive never used them. greased wool is good but adding a wad infront of it wont hurt as nothing gets by a wad. wads clean the bore some also. i leaded a real colt saa 45 long colts barrel once with real black powder, was not a fun job cleaning the barrel. never had a problem since ive used wads. their are many right ways to load and you will find one. just dont lead your barrel.

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I have been loading 45 Colt with Black Powder for over 20 years. I never use a wad. Most likely the reason you had so much difficulty cleaning the fouling out of your Colt is that you did not use a Black Powder compatible bullet lube. Regular hard cast bullet lube is incompatible with Black Powder fouling. It forms a difficult to remove hard fouling in the bore. Soft, BP compatible bullet lube keeps the fouling in the bore soft and easy to remove. It only takes me about ten minutes to clean a pair of Colts that have been fired with my 45 Colt Black Powder ammunition, been doing it for over 20 years. All those other cartridges too.

P.S. In my experience there is no leading with Black Powder. I don't know why it is, perhaps because BP burns hotter than Smokeless powder. But I have never had to clean lead out of the barrels of any of my revolvers or rifles that I shoot with Black Powder. I don't even get any lead in the chambers like I do with Smokeless ammo, and there is never a deposit of carbon rings on the front face of the cylinder of a revolver. Simply no leading with BP for over 20 years.

Hard fouling with smokeless lube is a different story.

Driftwood Johnson, excellent post and thanks for the explanation about the cylinder /frame/pressure. These revolvers were designed to shoot "gunpowder" (Blackpowder) because that's all they had at the time. I've never seen a reference that "they" wanted to "down design " their revolvers so folks in the future wouldn't use some new "high pressure" gunpowder. Some folks try to push that idea when in fact the S.A.design of today is basically the same design as the originals. The biggest difference is in the materials used!! But, wonders never cease . . . The confusion of the "pressure vessel" (thing that must contain the pressure at firing) vs the support structure for the "pressure vessel" must be a tough one to get.
For me, shooting smokless was the main reason for the conversions!! Where I live, I can't shoot outdoors period or in a range with black powder , and I refuse to drive to a neighboring county just to do so. Conversions allow me to shoot indoors with my favorite type of handgun!!

I believe Kenny Howell is actually selling the 6 shot 45C cylinder again as the Patent has run its course.
As far as my conversions, they still do what they've been doing for the last 7 yrs. . . . shooting 1000 fps 45C ammo and maintaining .0015"- .002" barrel/cyl clearance. They are great shooters!!

Something to think about though is the difference in the conversion cyls themselves. All of mine are Kirst gated conversions and the conversion that the O.P. is taking about is the 2 piece Howell type cyl. The 2 piece type (those with an integral cap that contain individual firing pins) don't have the backing or support that the gated versions (Howell or Kirst) have. The gated versions utilize all of the recoil shield (the conversion ring backs up to it or is mounted on it) whereas the cap for the Remington 2 piece cyl does not.

Mike

gcleff11 said:

I am starting to see a plan coming together. This is so cool...

DocRock, I have Pyrodex right now for my cap & ball, and ordered some card wedges as you specified. So it's okay to just treat the conversion like I would be loading a regular c&b cylinder? Use the Pyrodex as normal, with wad, etc.? I'm not trying to be too frugal, but I do have Pyrodex on hand, and I'm testing things out...

TTv2, I'm going with soft lead for the initial test loads. If I am loaded light with powder for the test loads, should I use the heavier grain bullet size, or go lighter with the 160 gr for the test?

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Pyrodex is fine if that's what you have in hand. I'm a big fan of the 200 grs Big Lube bullet that Driftwood designed. In fact, it's the only bullet I use for CAS and I buy mine from Whyte. There's no reason not to use that bullet with 45 acp. I know Driftwood is a bullet on powder works just fine proponent and I can't say that's wrong. I still like a thin card wad between powder and bullet. I bet the 45acp and Schofield loads with the 200 grs Big Lube will be very close and a pleasure to shoot.

Recommend no more crimp than needed to take the bell out of the case mouth and keep the bullet finger tight in the case. This helps mitigate blowback.

Howdy Again

The purpose of a wad between powder and bullet is so the base of the bullet does not get distorted when the powder is compressed, possibly affecting accuracy.

A long time ago when I was still wet behind the ears with loading cartridges with Black Powder, I tried some experiments.

I was using hardcast bullets that I melted the standard bullet lube our of and pan lubed with my Crisco/beeswax BP compatible bullet lube.

These experiments were done with 44-40. I was placing a thin wad, maybe .030 or so thick, I really don't remember, between bullet and powder. But I realized that my pan lubed bullets with their skimpy lube grooves did not carry enough lube to fully coat the barrel of a rifle for its entire length. As I believe I mentioned earlier, with soft BP compatible bullet lube coating the bore for its entire length, clean up is easy.

So I started adding lube cookies to my ammo. I punched my lube cookies out of sheets of beeswax that I bought at the local craft store. So I dumped in the powder, seated a wad to keep the powder separated form the wax, placed the lube cookie in, then seated and crimped the bullet, compressing the powder by around 1/16" or so.

I took these to the range and fired them out of my 44-40 Winchester Model 1892 rifle. Accuracy was abysmal. At 25 yards or so my groups looked more like a shotgun pattern. I had previously fired that rifle with factory 44-40 smokeless ammo, so I knew it was capable of good accuracy.

I was able to recover a few of the bullets, and I found that the wax cookie had gotten glued to the base of the bullets when I seated and crimped the bullets. With the wax glued to the base of the bullet, they flew like lopsided darts. None of them key holed, but accuracy was terrible.

So next I added another card wad between the wax and the bullet. So I was dumping in powder, seating a wad, seating a lube cookie, seating another wad, then seating and crimping the bullet.

Way, way too much work. I don't just load up a few rounds, I load at least 200 per sitting and this was way much more work than I wanted to be doing.

It was about this time that I discovered Big Lube bullets, and never put a wad or lube cookie in a cartridge again, except 45-70, which I will explain in a minute.

Anyway, back to wads. During this time I conducted another experiment. As I said earlier, the purpose of a card wad between powder and bullet is so the base of the bullet does not get deformed when seating it against the powder. My Black Powder Big Lube bullets use very soft lead, and it made sense to me to add the card wad in their.

So I loaded up 2 batches of 44-40, lubed with SPG, a commercial BP bullet lube. One batch had a card wad between bullet and powder, one batch had nothing between bullet and powder. Off to the range again. With my miserable eyesight, and open sights, I could determine no significant difference in accuracy with either batch of ammo, with or without cards between powder and bullet.

So I stopped putting cards between bullet and powder. One more step to reload ammo, that to me at least was unnecessary.

That is with a rifle and 44-40. With a revolver it would be even less useful to put a wad between powder and bullet. Not that revolvers are inaccurate, but for the kind of shooting I do, it was totally unnecessary, just like using a drop tube was unnecessary.

45-70 is a different story. I am trying to shoot accurately out of my Trap door or Sharps at relatively long distance. So with my BP 45-70 I want to tweak the ammo as much as possible. I do use a drop tube for my 45-70 Black Powder cartridges. The idea of a drop tube is the powder falling 2 feet down a tube packs itself more consistently in the cartridge. Gravity does that. Also, gravity puts more powder into the same space that would be taken up by slightly less powder without the drop tube. So the more consistently the powder sits in the case, the more accurate the ammunition will be. After I pour my powder down the drop tube I seat a thin card wad .030 thick on top of the powder which will protect the base of the bullet. Then I use a compression die to compress the powder about .100 before seating the bullet. Then I seat the bullet on top of the card wad without compressing anything any more. I only give my 45-70 ammo a light crimp, just enough to hold the bullet in place. Since it I am shooting this stuff through a single shot rifle, a heavy crimp is not necessary to keep the bullets from jumping forward when the gun recoils, there is no magazine and no ammo in a magazine to worry about. Some guys don't put any crimp on their long range BP ammo at all, I put on a very minimal crimp.

There you have it. That is why I never put card wads in all those cartridges I posted before. I found that it is just not necessary for most of the shooting I do.

By the way, if you have read this far, you will need to have a BP compatible bullet lube with Pyrodex, just like with real Black Powder. Pyrodex does not like modern hard lubes either. And just so you know, most guys report Pyrodex causes more corrosion than real Black Powder does. You have to come back and clean again a few days later to make sure you get all the bad stuff out. That is what I have read anyway, I never use Pyrodex, only real Black Powder.

Hope this helps.

DocRock said:

Recommend no more crimp than needed to take the bell out of the case mouth and keep the bullet finger tight in the case. This helps mitigate blowback.

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If you are shooting a revolver, you want a firm crimp. A firm crimp prevents bullets from jumping forward when the gun recoils. Actually, the bullet stays in place and everything else, including the cartridge case, jumps back.

I put a firm crimp on all my ammunition, Black Powder or Smokeless.

Also, blowback will be mitigated by a firm crimp, not a light crimp. Blowback is when powder gasses escape backwards past the case in the chamber depositing fouling in the mechanism of a lever action rifle. Most cartridges, such as 45 Colt have relatively thick brass, around .012 thick at the case mouth. The relatively light pressure generated by Black Powder is often not enough to swell the case to seal the chamber. Putting a firm crimp on the cartridge delays the bullet from leaving the cartridge mouth, thereby increasing pressure. The increased pressure will then cause the case to swell more and seal the chamber better, helping to eliminate blowback of fouling into the mechanism of the rifle. That is why 44-40 is the darling of Black Powder rifle shooters. The brass at the case mouth is much thinner, around .007 on average, and expands beautifully to seal the chamber and prevent blow back into the rifle mechanism.

It is actually a moot point with a revolver. Fouling is going to be blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and get all over the place anyway. But you still want a firm crimp so the bullets do not jump forward when the gun recoils.

Driftwood Johnson said:

If you are shooting a revolver, you want a firm crimp. A firm crimp prevents bullets from jumping forward when the gun recoils. Actually, the bullet stays in place and everything else, including the cartridge case, jumps back.

I put a firm crimp on all my ammunition, Black Powder or Smokeless.

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Well, we shall have to disagree. A crimp that keeps the bullet finger tight, ie can't be pulled or moved with finger strength, will be sufficient to avoid bullet movement in a revolver, especially the light loads of a 45acp case with BP. And I believe that a heavy crimp, like one would use with a "Ruger Only" smokeless load, risks bullet deformation with the soft lead bullets one should use with BP loads, unlike with the harder lead suited to those high pressure loads.

I have been doing this for a long time. Using very soft bullets. When I was casting my own bullets, my 44-40 bullets were pure lead. My 45s had a little bit of tin added, but still very soft, I could easily dig my thumbnail into them.

What I said about blowback is common knowledge in CAS circles, and a heavy crimp with 45 Colt in a rifle is the way to avoid it.

I have never seen any evidence of bullet deformation with my BP ammunition. I have pulled enough bullets over the years that if the crimp had caused deformation, I would have seen it.

.45 acp headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge , so do be careful not to over crimp.