9x18 vs 9 Ultra

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Sgt. Stiglitz

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Picked up a Nice Walther PP Super in 9 Ultra. Always wanted one. Thought I would try some of the Fort Smith Solid copper TUI bullets just for fun. 9 Ultra is loaded with 98.8gr Truncated bullets that tumble. Current Fiocchi is loaded to 960+ fps. This thing was made in 1974 and it looks brand new, shot very little if at all! Ordered a spring kit for it cause the one in it are 46 years old and Walther has parts in stock! Spring kit arrived today, new recoil spring is the same length as the old one. have 700 rounds of 9 Ultra brass and just for grins I tried some 9 Makarov cases cause' they are virtually the same length sized down to accept a .355 bullet in 9MM dies.
Loaded up some 9x18 Mak cases sized in 9 MM Dies with .355 90-95gr .380 bullets, worked like a champ! Feed, cycle, eject like they were made for it, fit the chamber perfectly. They end up looking like 9 Mak rounds cause the magazines are made for truncated bullets not round nose ones......so you have to seat round nose FMJ's little deeper than normal. Using .380 load data. Dimensions are generous enough that Mak cases fit the breech faces on ALL my .380's. CZ, 82/83's Sig 238, Browning BDA, Walther PPK, Colt 1908 and even my Husqvarna 1907. They won't chamber all the way in the .380's cause the case is tapered and bigger in diameter. Didn't anyone ever try using Mak cases sized in 9 MM Dies? No split or bulged cases like you would get using 380's in the 9 MM Ultra. Started reloading .380's and everything else since 1982ish.
They work great the gun can't tell the difference. Used .380 load data for 95 gr bullets. 9 Mak was based off 9 Ultra. There is enough tolerances in the rims and gun so the little bigger rim of the 9 Mak works fine. Yes it will shoot and cycle .380's but the bulge a bit cause the cases are smaller in diameter, 9 Mak fit just like they were made for it. It's a keeper!

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9 Mak cases are Red. 9 Ultra are Green the 3 in the center are .380's. 9 Mak and 9 Ultra are really thick walled at the rear of the cases. You can see the .380's bulge slightly near the base.

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Assorted 9 Mak/9 Ultra reloads. Even cast lead truncated 100gr bullets work great!
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My 9 Mak/9 Ultra reloads go about 990 fps.
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9 Mak factory run about 1048 fps. I am using .380 load data for mine. I will load up some using 9 Mak data nextime. 9 Ultra has about 5% more capacity than .380's and the cases are significantly thicker like the Mak cases.
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I think that is more information in one place about 9mm Police than I have ever seen, Sgt. Stiglitz. I have a Benelli B-82, which is one of the Benelli B-76 series pistols, but chambered in 9mm Police. Some police organization somewhere bought a batch of them, and Simpson's in Galesburg, IL, sold them off a few years ago. Or maybe 10+. Time goes by fast.

I have some Geco and some Fiocchi ammo for the Benelli, but one brand is over-length for the magazine, so I can only shoot one or two rounds of it at a time. I am afraid I can't recall which it is.

I keep looking at PP Supers on GunBroker because they are such good looking guns (IMO), but I just haven't been able to make up my mind to bid.

BTW, 9x20mm Browning SR is one of my favorite cartridges. It is one of history's also-rans, but it was much better than a number of cartridges that did get used, like 9mm Glisenti, 8mm Nambu, or 7.65mm French Long. IMO, again.
 
Made my own 9 Browning Long too till Starline came out with brass! I have both barrels for it!
Swedish Husqvarna Model 1907. 380 and 9 Browning. 9 Browning isn't that far behind a 115 gr 9MM bullet! I think I was getting 1160fps with factory 9 Browning. Hornady 90 or 95gr JHP's work fine in the 9 Ultra, they have the same profile as the FMJ's. The Fort Smith 95gr Copper solids fit the Ultra magazine too! Round nose .380 bullets need to be seated a little deeper to function in the magazines though.


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Yes that is what I paid for it!

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This thing gobbles up .380's like crazy!

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9 Largo trimmed to headspace off the case mouth for the 9 Browning.
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The PPU factory in Serbia also loads 9mm Browning Long and exports it to the US. I bought a couple of boxes, but I have not tried it yet. The FN 1903 is a nice gun (although it has "the fine hang and balance of an electric drill") but I really like the Webley 1909 in that caliber. The Webley 1921 actually handles better (the grip angle is good) but the safety catch is badly located, halfway forward on the side of the slide. Reaching it one-handed is not at all practical, and there is nothing to protect it from unintentional movement.

Fun fact - the H&R 32 Self Loader, which has a layout like a Webley 1909, is actually a better shooter than a Webley 32 automatic. IMO, anyway. The grip is a better shape, and the sights are bigger. The H&R is one of those rare guns that shoot much better than they look.

PS - that is an excellent holster you have for your Husqvarna. Most of them look rode hard and put away wet. And the grips and sights on your Colt 1903 are obviously something special too.

PPS - Starline makes 9mm Browning Long brass now?! I should get some, because I like 9mm BL stuff. I don't reload though. I am too careless and easily distracted. "A man's got to know his limitations."
 
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1908.
Two sets of complete sides and barrels! I was shooting it one day and notices the front sight blade was loose. Took it to a gunsmith who restaked it. Next time out shooting, first shot, sight went bye bye! So off it went to Novak, Now they remake them! I have seen several of the little H&R' .32's on Gun Broker but I don't need another caliber!






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Already got two .32's!
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Sgt. Stiglitz

Like you I was very interested in getting a Walther PP Super in 9mm. Ultra but I was concerned about the availability of commercial ammo for it so I passed on it.

You have an awesome collection of "oldies but goodies"; like the Husqvarna M1907 and the Colt Model 1908; especially with those sights!
 
Monac
I keep looking at PP Supers on GunBroker because they are such good looking guns (IMO), but I just haven't been able to make up my mind to bid.

That's the same way I felt about the PP Super; loved the way it looked! It also would have gone nicely with the Walther PP, PPK/s, P1, and P4 I had.
 
Had a Super Pp many years ago but sold it for a little profit. It did shoot .380 but yes cases sometimes split. There was Geco 9x18 at the time . I love my 1907 Swedish and have the factory modified .380 barrel and bought a new 9 mm Long barrel and spring (the .380 spring is cut ) and it shoots the PPU ammo perfectly,unlike the .380 set up, and yes it is only a 150 fps under the lighter 9-19mm loads . I like your suppressor 1908. I have an extra stainless threaded 1907 barrel I couldn't pass up on E Bay. I could load 124 grain bullets just subsonic in the Swede and screw on my realitvely large suppressor with no piston and spring I guess on a blow back gun, but haven't done so yet as only had my stamp a few months. Interesting thread for me , thanks.
 
The Fiocchi 9mm police has been fine for me in my Walther. When I bought it ammo was sporadically available but lately it seems like it's in stock about every time I look. The Super is really an interesting gun. Maybe the last and i think the most modern service pistol to be a blowback design.
 
I am surprised that a cartridge with such a high chamber pressure can be used in a blowback pistol. There are so many things I do not understand about firearms engineering.
 
I am surprised that a cartridge with such a high chamber pressure can be used in a blowback pistol. There are so many things I do not understand about firearms engineering.
There is not(Should be NOW) a blowback carbine chambered in 10 mm pistol cartridge. There is the WWII Astra 600 chambered in 9x19 parabellum that is blowback and HiPoint today sells such caliber pistols up to .40 and .45.
edit to say now.
 
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"There is not a blowback carbine chambered in 10 mm pistol cartridge. There is the WWII Astra 600 chambered in 9x19 parabellum that is blowback and HiPoint today sells such caliber pistols up to .40 and .45."

Ruger PC Carbines in .40 and 9mm are blowback Marlin .45 and 9mm carbines were blow back......my Husqvarna Model Service 1907 Pistol in 9 Browning Long is Blowback and 9 Browning long long is just a little below full power 115gr 9mm. Highpoints are all blowback my Smith& Wesson 76 submachine gun is Open Bolt and blowback. Highpoint does sell a 10mm Carbine. https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/review-hi-point-1095-ts-10mm-carbine/359228





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The 9x18 is quite a bit hotter than the .380. More like a half step between the .380 and the 9x19. Unfortunately, most American ammo companies see fit to load their 9x18 loads so that they are virtually identical to their .380 loads. You can think of a 9x18 as having bullet weight similar to the .380 and velocities just a bit lower than the 9x19.
When ammo was harder to buy I handloaded some 9mm police with hornady 95gr XTP bullets. Started with middle 380 book load as i had no 9x18 data and stepped up in .1 grain powder increments. Even with what by the book was a maximum load ( if it were a 380) the PP Super in 9mm police was not uncomfortable to shoot and had no indications of overpressure. Now i would have to redo this if I had a bullet weight at a more correct 100 or 105 gr, but it is a nice step up from 380.

The sheer quantity of 9x19 ammunition and firearms already in use in Germany probably meant it never really had a chance as a service cartridge, though. It was a 9mm Nato world.
 
"There is not a blowback carbine chambered in 10 mm pistol cartridge. There is the WWII Astra 600 chambered in 9x19 parabellum that is blowback and HiPoint today sells such caliber pistols up to .40 and .45."

Ruger PC Carbines in .40 and 9mm are blowback Marlin .45 and 9mm carbines were blow back......my Husqvarna Model Service 1907 Pistol in 9 Browning Long is Blowback and 9 Browning long long is just a little below full power 115gr 9mm. Highpoints are all blowback my Smith& Wesson 76 submachine gun is Open Bolt and blowback. Highpoint does sell a 10mm Carbine. https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/review-hi-point-1095-ts-10mm-carbine/359228
I meant to write 'now' and 'not' was a typo





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9x18 Ultra is really 98.3 grains! So 90, 95, 100, and even the Remington 102gr Golden Sabres should work. My
Speer Reloading Manual, Rifle and Pistol: Number 13 shows 4 grains of WW 231 for 95 gr .380 bullets as max. An Old Lyman reloading book shows 4.5grs max with a 95gr bullet. I have included photos of the manuals so their won't be any mistakes! Reloading companies have gotten more litigious and cautious over the decades I have been reloading. 9X18 9 Ultra has 5% more capacity than .380.



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Lyman reloading manual.
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Speer 13th Edition.
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Just checked my notes... they were 90gr XTP over 4.8gr power pistol for the stoutest i did. I was following the range in the Lee manual. From 4.2 up all functioned fine. I expect with only 90gr weight and the larger case that more capacity remains, but without a chronograph I didn't see any point in pushing it.
 
Since I have literally buckets of 9mm and a case trimmer and knowing 9Mak has been made from 9mm cases, I cut a bunch of 9mm cases and loaded them to 9 Ultra Specs and they function perfectly. Now if I am out shooting and loose a few, no big deal! 9 Ultra run about 17.91mm. .4 thousandths is close enough!




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