So any advantages of the a modern rifle in .45-70?

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Ages ago for laughs my buddy and I were curious as to how much my cast bullets could penetrate,there were some pieces of an apple tree left for the block house wood stove at our range. They were 2 ft long 8 inches in diameter,put one out at 100 yds,C Sharps 1875 45/70 450 gr bullet at 1600 fps penetrated 14 inches of that log we were both quite impressed. Some day l'd like to see what a 500 gr would do from my Shiloh 1874.
 
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highlander 5 said:
Ages ago for laughs my buddy and I were curious as to how much my cast bullets could penetrate,there here some pieces of an apple tree left for the block house wood stove at our range. They were 2 ft long 8 inches in diameter,put one out at 100 yds,C Sharps 1875 45/70 450 gr bullet at 1600 fps penetrated 14 inches of that log we were both quite impressed. Some day l'd like to see what a 500 gr would do from my Shiloh 1874.
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Bullet shape helps a lot, the rounder the better normally. Plus just enough speed to deform the bullet, sometimes slower will penetrate more.
 
labnoti said:
The .30-30, once they figured it out, proved to be more effective than a .45-70. What's changed since then is a few hundred fps have been added to the .45-70, but not enough to make it faster than a .30-30. Does the .45-70 with heavy bullets penetrate big bears better? Yes, but there's 458's for that and the 458's wound more decisively. For just about anything else, .30-30 is still better, and it's got to be one of the wimpiest smallbore rifle cartridges out there.

The .45-70 could be fun, it can certain take game, and it's traditional, but there are cartridges that do everything better. Now if it was necked-down to .33 Winchester, it would make a good rimmed deer cartridge for lever actions and single-shots, but not quite as good as the .348 Winchester. The .348 is useful all-around and with a bullet suitable to the task, a better choice than .45-70 for anything except maybe big bear defense for which the 45-70 still leaves a lot to be desired. Still, I think a lot of 45-70's sell for reasons other than big "bears." If it's for nostalgia, it's easy to understand. The 45-70 certainly has a place in history but as a "modern" cartridge, no, it's lame.
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A cartridge available in a $500 levergun that's capable of taking everything up to and including the African Big Six is "lame"???


troy fairweather said:
Bullet shape helps a lot, the rounder the better normally. Plus just enough speed to deform the bullet, sometimes slower will penetrate more.
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Actually rounder isn't better. Not only does a flat nosed solid with an ogival shape penetrate straighter, it produces a huge wound channel without giving up much penetration depth.

Slower is only better if the bullet is overtaxed by the impact velocity. Typical with cast bullets.
 
CraigC said:
A cartridge available in a $500 levergun that's capable of taking everything up to and including the African Big Six is "lame"???
.
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There is a lever gun in .45-70 that goes for only $500? Granted I've been only looking at MSRP and not Retail...
 
Gunbroker has some listings that may go in the low 550s, but Id expect to spend at least that even for a used gun locally. Last .45-70 marlin I saw for sale was right at 850.
 
highlander 5 said:
Ages ago for laughs my buddy and I were curious as to how much my cast bullets could penetrate,there were some pieces of an apple tree left for the block house wood stove at our range. They were 2 ft long 8 inches in diameter,put one out at 100 yds,C Sharps 1875 45/70 450 gr bullet at 1600 fps penetrated 14 inches of that log we were both quite impressed. Some day l'd like to see what a 500 gr would do from my Shiloh 1874.
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Bullet was a rnfp from a Saeco mold sized .458 IIRC. Used the same bullet in a Browning 1886 curved steel but plate no fun to shoot.
 
I don't see a point in 45-70 except as a personal preference or in order to be compliant in states that restrict hunting calibers to certain straight wall ones.
 
Lots of stuff here about the 45/70. Here's the facts-

1) It is a VERY versatile cartridge, especially if you handload
2) It isn't for everybody, especially if you're recoil sensitive or a poor shot.
3) If large and slow isn't a good thing why would you like a 45ACP?
4) It can be extremely accurate even in black powder loads. It's not unusual to see less than 10fps spread in velocity in long range match guns.
5) Lots of choices in firearms from early trapdoors, to lever guns, to Ruger #1 or 3 and Siamese Mauser.
6) Paper numbers don't tell the entire story. There is a thing called momentum and impulse. Most paper number crunchers ignore those along with transonic effects on faster rounds.
7) A hard cast boolit with large meplat at moderate velocity will have serious penetration.

Submitted for your entertainment-


Don't like the 45-70? Ok, it's not for everybody, but a man with one in the woods need not fear any critter on this continent.
 
dave951 said:
If large and slow isn't a good thing why would you like a 45ACP?
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Not really an apt analogy. Comparing the 45-70 vs. modern bottleneck cartridge comparison to the .45acp vs. other pistol cartridge comparison is too disparate. In terms of terminal ballistics, the 45-70 comparison, say, with it’s common match-mate, the .30-06, is a comparison of “light and fast versus slow and heavy.” Comparing a 45acp, however, to say, a 9mm, is comparing “heavy and slow versus less heavy and less slow.”
 
Varminterror said:
Not really an apt analogy. Comparing the 45-70 vs. modern bottleneck cartridge comparison to the .45acp vs. other pistol cartridge comparison is too disparate. In terms of terminal ballistics, the 45-70 comparison, say, with it’s common match-mate, the .30-06, is a comparison of “light and fast versus slow and heavy.” Comparing a 45acp, however, to say, a 9mm, is comparing “heavy and slow versus less heavy and less slow.”
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Sorry but I'm missing your point entirely. The 45ACP is a straight wall cartridge with a heavy bullet at moderate velocity. It's main rival, the 9mm, is also a straight wall cartridge with a much lighter bullet at much higher velocity.

The physics of momentum and impulse don't change and can't be ignored.
 
dave951 said:
Sorry but I'm missing your point entirely. The 45ACP is a straight wall cartridge with a heavy bullet at moderate velocity. It's main rival, the 9mm, is also a straight wall cartridge with a much lighter bullet at much higher velocity.

The physics of momentum and impulse don't change and can't be ignored.
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Indeed, you ARE missing the point.

“Much higher velocity” in this case is moot.

The paradigm of terminal ballistics shift between “killing mechanisms” is well documented, and also cannot be ignored. 9mm is not fast enough to “kill like a rifle,” as most folks put it. So the 9mm is faster than 45acp, it’s NOT crossing a threshold which predicates a different mechanism.

Quite plainly - if we say 45-70 kills like a handgun, big and slow, and 30-06 kills like a rifle, light and fast, it is NOT true then to say 45acp kills like a handgun, but 9mm kills like a rifle. Because 9mm doesn’t. It’s still just a less heavy, less slow cartridge, it’s not really crossing into a “light and fast” cartridge.

As I said above - comparing the difference between 9mm and 45 to the difference between 30-06 and 45-70 simply isn’t apt.
 
It’s gonna kill what you hit if aimed right and is fun to shoot while maintaining a bit of nostalgia. Too often, we get into scientific squabbles when there is so much more than science involved. My first rifle hunt in Northern Michigan 20 years ago was with my Marlin .30-30. I was absolutely equal to my camp-mates who also failed to shoot a deer. Our suckage was not a matter of caliber choice.
 
Varminterror said:
Indeed, you ARE missing the point.

“Much higher velocity” in this case is moot.

The paradigm of terminal ballistics shift between “killing mechanisms” is well documented, and also cannot be ignored. 9mm is not fast enough to “kill like a rifle,” as most folks put it. So the 9mm is faster than 45acp, it’s NOT crossing a threshold which predicates a different mechanism.

Quite plainly - if we say 45-70 kills like a handgun, big and slow, and 30-06 kills like a rifle, light and fast, it is NOT true then to say 45acp kills like a handgun, but 9mm kills like a rifle. Because 9mm doesn’t. It’s still just a less heavy, less slow cartridge, it’s not really crossing into a “light and fast” cartridge.

As I said above - comparing the difference between 9mm and 45 to the difference between 30-06 and 45-70 simply isn’t apt.
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Show me a 3006 that will penetrate 17 1gal water jugs with a 350gr bullet. That was done with a SHARPS shooting a 350gr hard CAST bullet. No huge velocity, no "expansion" needed, it's already 45cal.
 
FL-NC said:
I don't see a point in 45-70 except as a personal preference or in order to be compliant in states that restrict hunting calibers to certain straight wall ones.
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Which States limit rifles to straight wall cases?
 
whm1974 said:
Which States limit rifles to straight wall cases?
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I can’t give you a list, but Ohio does. Years ago, we were shotgun slug, muzzle-loader, straight-walled handgun, and bow-only (plus crossbow). They loosened up some years ago and allowed rifles shooting straight-walled rounds with minimum of .38 special. This is for deer. Other game animals have different restrictions if any at all.

91CF8C74-70F2-46DD-8130-0B97ECA9B772.png
 
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dave951 said:
Show me a 3006 that will penetrate 17 1gal water jugs with a 350gr bullet. That was done with a SHARPS shooting a 350gr hard CAST bullet. No huge velocity, no "expansion" needed, it's already 45cal.
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Lame straw man.

In the context of the point I refuted, show me a 45acp which will penetrate 17 1gal water jugs with a 350gr bullet...
 
Varminterror said:
Lame straw man.

In the context of the point I refuted, show me a 45acp which will penetrate 17 1gal water jugs with a 350gr bullet...
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Which is rather silly thing to demand as .45 ACP is only used for protecting yourself and family without going well over a mile downrange... Which it does quite well even with FMJ ball ammo...
 
There are countless rounds out there that will kill all manner of game animals very dead. At a certain point, it’s about personal style.

Some guys like everything about their guns to be out of a scifi movie, others like walnut and steel. Others like both. As long as you know and respect the capabilities of your rig and you can hit what you’re shooting at, it’s all good.

rounds like the 45-70 are kind of a DIYer’s round. Easy to handload for (and variable power of you do handload) and easy to cast bullets for. Plus, there’s something oddly satisfying about those big fat rimmed rounds.

There’s more to hunting and shooting than practicality and numbers on a ballistic chart.
 
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