All other factors excluded, is .380 ACP the best pocket semi auto caliber?
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Jim Watson
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Be advised that .32 ACP is a considerable overload for .32 S&W and even .32 S&W Long; 20500 ppsi vs 17000-15000 ppsi.
Yes, .32 S&W Long is lower MAP than .32 S&W but the same in CUP, ACP 15000 CUP, S&W and S&W L 12000 CUP.
Yes, .32 S&W Long is lower MAP than .32 S&W but the same in CUP, ACP 15000 CUP, S&W and S&W L 12000 CUP.
lonniemike
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I do know that when I put the P365 or P3AT into my pockets that both are much harder to get to than my TCP. The TCP prints less than the other two. Ammo Quest(ShootingtheBull)) has a newer video showing better performance with Lehigh's 90gr Extreme Penetrator vs Hornady's Precision One. I'd like to see vid's comparing 65gr Ex Defense (MFT)vs 56gr ARX(don'tknowwhattheycallit) vs ?70gr G9(EHP). Waiting on Ammo Quest. I note that his personal carry is a TCP. I usually don't see a lot of love for the TCP. Two of mine run like singer sewing machines. Oil your machines. Shoot often.
Ed Ames
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Yup.
Same basis as with any firearm: Physics punches holes in biology. Biology responds poorly. Things grind to a halt.
Is it the ideal? Nope. There are faster, better, cheaper rounds that get the job done with less drama from gun forum experts that want to make sure everyone follows their Truth, but those rounds won’t fit in a gun chambered for .32, and a gun chambered for .32 is what fits in some pockets, so the existence of better is irrelevant and we’re forced to make do.
Who ever really recommended it? It’s a small weak cartridge. I certainly wouldn’t recommend it. I will, however, recommend a p32 for some circumstances, and .32 ACP is the only cartridge a P32 fires. If your needs include a carry gun with a 9oz loaded weight, .32ACP is what you are stuck with so quit grousing about things you can’t have and figure out how to make what you do have work.
On that basis, one could assert that a .22 Short will "deliver enough to stop someone from attacking".
Ed Ames
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Yup. And if .22 short is the most gun you can carry for some reason you’d do well to figure out how to make it work for you. If you can’t, that’s on you. Don’t blame your tools.
But this was about pocket carry, and I’ve yet to see a pocket designed for adult hands to reach into that couldn’t hold a p32, so why worry about smaller? If we were talking about belt buckle carry .22 short might be the best available choice, but we aren’t, so it’s kinda a distraction to even bring it up.
Rockrivr1
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380 is my go to carry in summer time. A Keltec P3AT easily carries in a front pocket with no printing issues what so ever. I tried with a Kahr PM9 and it was just too big for pocket carry.
That's not a reasonable strategy.
One may be able to deter with a .22 Short. but stopping with it is a very questionable proposition.
I would also choose something better than a .32.
earlthegoat2
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I would choose something better than a .380 for that matter as many in this thread have already stated but that hasn’t stopped this weird thread from dying.
Ed Ames
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Anyone who still thinks life always gives you reasonable options just hasn’t been paying attention.
You are getting tangled up in your own euphemisms. Stopping an attacker doesn’t mean killing them. It means ending the immediate threat.
And who wouldn’t? Of course we all would, if circumstances allowed. Show me an actual alternative for the use case. I’d love to hear one. But I’m guessing all you’ve got is, “that’s not my use case, I do X instead.” That’s nice and all but who other than you really cares? I do X too when circumstances allow.
It’s like someone saying, “I need to put diesel in my truck,” and you answering, “I buy my gasoline at Costco, they generally have the best price.” That’s wonderful, I’m happy for you, but Costco doesn’t sell diesel and my truck doesn’t need gasoline so...who cares?
It means what it says: stopping the attacker. That implies that the attack has begun. The immediate threat may be ended by deterring the attacker.
For me, the circumstances will so allow.
What are you trying to say?
WheelGunMan
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Spot on!! That's the reason the venerable .380 has earned the reputation as a "GET OFF ME" gun.
Ed Ames
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Since you can’t respond with lethal force until an attack has begun, you are just playing word games.
Exactly. So?
A use case is a case (scenario) in which a tool (e.g. a gun, airplane, computer, or whatever) will be used in some manner. So for example if your use case is “tightening #2 Phillips screws”, you need a screwdriver that can accomplish that use case...a t6 driver may be better in every way but it doesn’t match the use case so it doesn’t work at all.
Everyone has many use cases, but not everyone has the same use cases. There are plenty of people who have lived long and happy lives with out owning a rocket capable of delivering humans to lunar orbit....but for the person with a particular use case, the only tools that matter to that use case are the ones that can actually be used in their scenario.
So for example I’ve owned a G20 and I’m capable of concealing it well enough to meet legal requirements in my state. Have done it, will do it.
One of my use cases is long distance road trips into states with magazine capacity restrictions. Could I make the G20 work by buying different magazines? Yes, but it doesn’t work as shipped. And if I make it work, why am I carrying around a gun sized to hold a 15 round magazine when I only get 10? For that use case I’m better off with a smaller gun.
Another of my use cases is going into soft restricted environments. To be clear, these are places I’m legally allowed to carry, but where the repercussions of being found to carry could amount to a $$$,$$$ or even $,$$$,$$$ personal financial loss, depending on how you measure such things. The idea of carrying my G20 in such an environment is laughable, it just doesn’t fit the use case.
In my experience, there are use cases where even a P3AT is a margin fit. I’ve tried a number of alternatives including NAA minis, and the best overall fit for those use cases has been a P32, so I had and recommend them. If you know of better alternatives for those use cases, I’d be very interested in hearing them. But I can tell you in advance that a bigger gun is going the wrong direction. If a person who has tried both a P3AT and a P32 tells you there is a noticeable difference for his use, saying “just get something that weighs more and is bigger” isn’t going to be helpful.
That is not true.
Ed Ames
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Well then under your terminology all of the guns we’ve discussed have both deterrent and stopping capability. Some more than others.
Personally, for my use case, the .22 short is (just like .25ACP and a bunch of other rounds) is not chambered by guns that are enough smaller to justify the reduced capabilities. But that’s a choice everyone needs to make for themselves. If you tell me you have a use case where .22 short is the best choice you’ve found, I’ll be curious about why, and if I’m feeling helpful I may try to find alternatives that fits the same constraints but is more capable, but who am I to say you are wrong?
We would not usually attribute stopping capability to a weapon unless it would provide a reasonably high likelihood of a timely physical stop.
You misunderstood my comment. I would choose neither a .32 nor a .22 Short.
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TTv2
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As others have stated one reason is the extra shot over .38/.357, but I find 70 to 100 grain bullets to be easy and accurate to shoot with low recoil. Yeah, there are low weight .38 loads out there, but anything under 125 grain ballistically sucks, while the 125 grain .38 is more than I care to handle in a lightweight snub.
The point of all self defense encounters is not to kill the attacker, it's stop the threat. Show me where .38 is better than .32 in that regard and I don't want to hear arguments about 300 pound Samoans behind a plate glass window. If all it comes down to is hitting the right spot, then yeah, all calibers can do that, including .22 Short, but seriously, you cannot make the argument that .22 is equal to .32 revolvers with bullets that weigh twice as much.
Why would you choose to carry a .22 instead of a .32? Less recoil? When .32 S&W has the same felt recoil, what good does going to .22 do? More rounds in the cylinder, okay, but when you're working with a less reliable rimfire, that's really not much of an advantage especially when the triggers are so heavy in .22 revolvers, you're going to miss the target more than with a .32 and the lighter trigger. Ammo cost? Okay, yeah, you can practice more, but is the cost savings worth that?
Ed Ames
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Well that’s your problem. You (and the mouse you apparently have in your pocket) are thinking in absolutes when the problem domain involves quality.
Nah. You use the royal “we”, I use the impersonal “you”. Between the two of us, I think the impersonal “you” is more appropriate here.
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TTv2
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Name a situation where someone can LEGALLY use lethal force without their or someone else's life being in danger?
And keep the response in the realm of an attack by a human, not an animal or an alien.
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TTv2
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So, apparently, to you only what you would choose is best for everyone else?
1942bull
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The OP asked:
Personally, I think the best pocket pistol is the one you have in your pocket when you need it regardless of caliber.
Personally, I think the best pocket pistol is the one you have in your pocket when you need it regardless of caliber.
Almost all authorities agree that a .38 Special is a viable defensive round. I know of none who recommend the .32.
I choose to carry neither.
Absolutes? I spoke of likelihood.
There are none.
No.
Ed Ames
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Edited: Yeah I never said your position was logically consistent.
You said:
Translation: “I think there is an threshold below which I’m not going to acknowledge stopping capability, even if it is relatively close to something I do acknowledge has stopping capability.” Which is a way of saying you are quantizing a range of relative values into an absolute (viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative) “it has” or “it does not have” opinion. You think in absolutes.
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A gentle warning (Moderator hat on): Watch it. See the rules to which you agreed when you registered.
No.
How might on "quantize" a range of relative values into something that is not relative or comparative?
I do not. I am discussing likelihood, which cannot be absolute.
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