RSO Legal Authority

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InsaneRuffles

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I know an idiot. He likes to point his gun at people "Jokingly," and even did it loaded one time. I have not been in person when this idiot did it, but found out that he will be coming on a trip with my friends and I, and we will be going to a shooting range. I know the real solution is "Don't Go," but I have already spent hundreds of dollars on this trip.

My question is, what are my legal rights in this matter? I received my RSO certification at the Airforce Academy last year, but was only informed about what I was allowed to do on their range. If he pulls his crap again, what can I do other than threaten to call the police?
 
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InsaneRuffles said:
I know an idiot. He likes to point his gun at people "Jokingly," and even did it loaded one time. I have not been in person when this idiot did it, but found out that he will be coming on a trip with my friends and I, and we will be going to a shooting range.
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Do your friends know about this dude? If not, telling them is the first thing you should do.
InsaneRuffles said:
I know the real solution is "Don't Go," but I have already spent hundreds of dollars on this trip.
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Might be cheaper than a hospital stay or funeral.
InsaneRuffles said:
My question is, what are my legal rights in this matter?
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You're intentionally going into the situation knowing the risk (and that knowledge is now documented). You more than likely have less legal rights now than someone who encounters this dude with no foreknowledge.


 
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Legally, no idea. From a safety and common sense standpoint, I would point out the danger, move the muzzle, and see what he does. Others may also bust his b@lls, and that may shut him down. Increasing degrees of stupidity call for increased levels or response, but others more versed than I will have to file a legal opinion.
 
PWC said:
AF Academy....so did they also train you in buttstroke? What you aledge IS assault.
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You know... the answer is so simple I didn't think of it. Yes, it is classified as assault, and therefore anyone has the legal authority to intervene, physically if necessary.
 
Find a way to be elsewhere.

Your might also tell your idiot friends who've chosen to be around him that you'll call the police if he does assault you. I doubt I would speak to him at all; based on his behavior, he doesn't count as a person.
 
InsaneRuffles said:
My question is, what are my legal rights in this matter? I received my RSO certification at the Airforce Academy last year, but was only informed about what I was allowed to do on their range.
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The authority of a Range Safety Officer derives from his status as the agent of the range owner. If you have no official connection to the range at which you will be shooting, you have no authority over this unsafe shooter. Your options would be to call the range management, call the police, or leave. Has anyone considered having a heart-to-heart conversation with this shooter, pointing out the error of his ways? Tell him he will be disinvited unless he desists from the unsafe behavior.
 
bdickens said:
I believe that pointing a gun at someone is assault with a deadly weapon....
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Is it still considered that if the pointee consents to the pointing though? The OP is talking about knowingly going somewhere where he expects this person to point a loaded gun at him. Not exactly consent, per se, but it's pushing it. Serious question.
 
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bearcreek said:
Is it still considered that if the pointee consents to the pointing though? The OP is talking about knowingly going somewhere where he expects this person to point a loaded gun at him. Not exactly consent, per se, but it's pushing it. Serious question.
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Pointing a gun at someone is assault, which is considered a crime. You cannot consent to a crime.
 
Is your group going to get together before you go on this trip? If not, it would be wise of you to more than suggest that you do...demand that you have a meeting to discuss firearm safety issues and range procedure and ethics. The "idiot" should be taken to task by all of your group and have the gospel preached to him and if he thinks it's funny or insulting he should be have his invitation revoked.
 
InsaneRuffles said:
... the answer is so simple I didn't think of it. Yes, it is classified as assault, and therefore anyone has the legal authority to intervene, physically if necessary.
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InsaneRuffles said:
Pointing a gun at someone is assault, which is considered a crime. You cannot consent to a crime.
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Considering that you now profess this wealth of legal knowledge --

  • How is it that you did not know that an RSO has no authority at all except at the range at which he is performing, at the direction of range management, RSO duties?

  • Why did you even start this thread given that you apparently [believe you] have the answers?

  • Do you really understand what "assault" is? A basic, legal definition is (emphasis added):
    ..intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact....
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    So --

    • After you have injured your acquaintance believing he has committed assault, could the prosecutor, and a judge, conclude that your acquaintance's know penchant for idiotic horse play with guns vitiates any inference that he had the requisite intent to commit assault?

    • Could your knowledge of your acquaintance's penchant for idiotic horse play with guns vitiate any inference that you reasonably believed that you were being assaulted.

The bottom line is that the situation is far more complicated legally than you understand. Being in the vicinity of this guy when there are guns around in simply foolish.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Considering that you now profess this wealth of legal knowledge --

  • How is it that you did not know that an RSO has no authority at all except at the range at which he is performing, at the direction of range management, RSO duties?

  • Why did you even start this thread given that you apparently [believe you] have the answers?

  • Do you really understand what "assault" is? A basic, legal definition is (emphasis added): So --
    • After you have injured your acquaintance believing he has committed assault, could the prosecutor, and a judge, conclude that your acquaintance's know penchant for idiotic horse play with guns vitiates any inference that he had the requisite intent to commit assault?

    • Could your knowledge of your acquaintance's penchant for idiotic horse play with guns vitiate any inference that you reasonably believed that you were being assaulted.

The bottom line is that the situation is far more complicated legally than you understand. Being in the vicinity of this guy when there are guns around in simply foolish.
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You really took a hostile approach to me, so let me clear things up.

1. I said that I wasn't informed of anything beyond that range. I actually asked a question about our authority and the instructor said, "It is your duty to safeguard the well being of others as an RSO." This is why I made this thread, as we were given little information.
2. Someone simply pointed out that it is assault. I simply stated that yes it IS assault and you could technically intervene. Furthermore, is it not true that you cannot consent to a crime? Where did I ever say I have all the answers?
3. I don't believe I ever stated my intentions. Perhaps me saying that you could physically intervene counts as implicit intentions? Once again this is a discussion on legal rights. Furthermore, this is obviously a legal grey area, and I would only attempt physical action in an extreme case (imminent death/injury).

I will state my current intentions. I have been around this individual before with a firearm, and he handled himself properly during those times. I only heard of these other happenings, I never witnessed them. I have already told him that if he pulls that stuff while Im present, I will simply leave and go home, and that If things escalate, I will call the police. Once again, physical action will only be taken in extreme circumstances.

I have been around many idiots with guns before. That is unfortunately one of the consequences of the 2nd amendment. I have notified the the group of what is going to happen if he doesn't treat his firearm like a weapon. Is there risk? Yes. But I also care about my friends, and I'm not convinced they would take the necessary actions if he were to endanger their lives.
 
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InsaneRuffles said:
... let me clear things up.

1. I said that I wasn't informed of anything beyond that range. I actually asked a question about our authority and the instructor said, "It is your duty to safeguard the well being of others as an RSO." This is why I made this thread, as we were given little information.
2. Someone simply pointed out that it is assault. I simply stated that yes it IS assault and you could technically intervene. Furthermore, is it not true that you cannot consent to a crime? Where did I ever say I have all the answers?
3. I don't believe I ever stated my intentions. Perhaps me saying that you could physically intervene counts as implicit intentions? Once again this is a discussion on legal rights. Furthermore, this is obviously a legal grey area, and I would only attempt physical action in an extreme case (imminent death/injury).

I will state my current intentions. I have been around this individual before with a firearm, and he handled himself properly during those times. I only heard of these other happenings, I never witnessed them. I have already told him that if he pulls that stuff while Im present, I will simply leave and go home, and that If things escalate, I will call the police. Once again, physical action will only be taken in extreme circumstances.

I have been around many idiots with guns before. That is unfortunately one of the consequences of the 2nd amendment. I have notified the the group of what is going to happen if he doesn't treat his firearm like a weapon. Is there risk? Yes. But I also care about my friends, and I'm not convinced they would take the necessary actions if he were to endanger their lives.
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Excellent. I'm glad you've decided to get serious about the matter. As I said, it can be complicated. And if it comes to the point that the acquaintance does something perceived as dangerous and you or someone else needs to take some sort of action the possibilities for an unsatisfactory outcome increase exponentially -- especially because guns and ammunition are involved.

In effect, understanding if, when, and how you or someone else might be legally justified in using force to address the subject's unsafe gun handling, while important, is secondary. The first order of business is to consider strategies for avoiding problems.

And in that regard, see post 13. A properly executed "come to Jesus" meeting with the problem individual seems to be a good idea. It's time for "tough love." And he needs to understand that any infraction of safety protocol will result in an immediate discontinuance of activities, and he will not be invited to participate in future. And if the problem subject's attitude suggests to anyone that he is not taking things seriously, he should not be permitted to participate in the shooting.

And if your friends think that is too harsh, I suggest that you bow out.

That approach would be consistent with safety procedures for IPSC competition and those used at many shooting schools like Gunsite. There are no second chances.
 
InsaneRuffles said:
Pointing a gun at someone is assault, which is considered a crime. You cannot consent to a crime.
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Are you 100% certain that pointing a gun at someone is always considered assault, even with consent? If you are that certain, please cite your source.
 
InsaneRuffles said:
I have been around this individual before with a firearm, and he handled himself properly during those times. I only heard of these other happenings, I never witnessed them. I have already told him that if he pulls that stuff while I'm present, I will simply leave and go home, and that If things escalate, I will call the police.
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You have already answered your own question.
Barring unsafe gun handling in your presence, leave him alone.
If in your presence, move his gun into a safe position... and terminate your presence.

(So easy, even a Zoomie can do it.) :neener::):)

.
 
bearcreek said:
Are you 100% certain that pointing a gun at someone is always considered assault, even with consent? If you are that certain, please cite your source.
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Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. If someone points a gun at someone, and I called the police or otherwise acted, would the police care if the "recipient" consented or not? It also depends on the state. Some consider it full on assault, some consider it battery. It can also be argued that someone pointing a weapon at someone, loaded or not, consent or not, is a threat to everyone in the room.
 
It may or may not be assault. It may or may not depend on what jurisdiction it happens. It may or may not even be loaded. It IS 100% stupid, dangerous, disrespectful, and disgusting. Anyone willfully putting themself in the vicinity of someone with a history of such behavior is asking for problems. If you feel the behavior can be corrected, then go for it. People like that make us all look bad.
 
Thank you everyone for the posts. Its hard to approach this situation without the authority that I would normally have, but I still think I can make a difference in the matter. This individual also has his CCW and has taken multiple defense classes, so there has to be some regards for safety sloshing around in that ape brain of his.
 
InsaneRuffles said:
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. If someone points a gun at someone, and I called the police or otherwise acted, would the police care if the "recipient" consented or not?
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I don't know. Maybe you'll find out if you go on this trip. You've now documented ahead of time, in writing, the fact that you thought he'd be doing that. Can't imagine that'll help your case.
 
What will be the expense if you get shot? Or someone else.

https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/sunk-cost-fallacy/

Individuals commit the sunk cost fallacy when they continue a behavior or endeavor as a result of previously invested resources (time, money or effort) (Arkes & Blumer, 1985). This fallacy, which is related to loss aversion and status quo bias, can also be viewed as bias resulting from an ongoing commitment.
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That's the answer. There are some people I wouldn't hunt with anymore, even though they are good friends.
 
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