Let's Talk Alternatives

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D.B. Cooper

D.B. Cooper

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Okay, here we go again with demand outstripping supply. As many of you know, I live in Alaska, and it's pretty much impossible to order reloading components online and ship them up here.

Local supplies are virtually exhausted. There is a smattering of stuff here and there. The common and best stuff is all gone. So...my focus for this discussion is: What can I use as a substitute for x? I need to figure out how I can maximize what I have and utilize what is still available.

(And before we begin, yes, I realize that no one but me is responsible for anything I do.)

What can I use as a substitute for IMR 4064 and 4895? (assuming H4895 is also gone) Application: M1 Garand and 30-30 Winchester, possibly 243 Winchester.

What can I use as a substitute H110 and 2400? Application 44Mag and 38/357

What can I use as a substitute for Varget, cfe223 or other "AR15" loadings? (This one is for a friend. He just..just...bought a press (hasn't even opened it yet) and has no components. I don't have an AR or load for 223 so I don't even know where to get him started.)

Lastly, primers-primers are mostly gone, other than a few 100 pc boxes here and there. What, really, is the difference in a pistol and rifle prier of the same size?

What happens if I use a Large Rifle primer in a Large Pistol case (or the reverse of that)?

What happens if I use a Small Pistol or Small Pistol Magnum primer in a Small Rifle case?

Looking at my priming tool on my Lee classic turret press, there are only two parts, large and small, and I prime Large Rifle in my 30-06 cases with the same tool I prime Large Pistol in my 44 Magnum cases, so, dimensionally there must not be a difference?
 
Instead of us listing everything you could use, how about you let us know what you can get your hands on?

Lots of stuff will work, even if not ideal.

I have used rifle primers in some pistol loads but generally don’t go the other way, except 458 socom but it was designed for LPP.
 
I know LRP are taller than LPP and are a no go. SRP will fit in a SPP . Your gun may or may not have enough spring power to light them. There will be more fire for faster ignition and higher pressures are likely.
Tread carefully and good luck.
 
I agree it would be easier if you told us what you can get.

During the last Varget shortage I was able to get Rl15. It's great .223 powder and has a similar burn rate to IMR 4064. Alliant claims that it is Garand safe.
 
H110 is near identical to W296, which I’ll bet is also gone because this is pretty common knowledge amongst the Magnum handgun crowd.
 
As others have stated without knowing what's available it's hard to give you recommendations.

Can you get together with other reloaders and make a bulk order and split the shipping costs?
 
I don't mean to be difficult, but don't you have some reloading manuals to tell you what powders may work for which applications?

I mean, for .44 mag Alliant lists powders by bullet weight and design. Hodgdon has a search function that does the same. Reloading manuals list multiple powders for a given bullet.

Now if you'd care to list the loads and guns you already have, I (and of course others) might be able to offer some suggestions on substitute powders that could get you similar performance.
 
Read through your reloading manuals and see what components are used by the different companies/data labs and select from what is available.

When the shortages are over, start developing alternate loads for your more important ammunition.

Then you have options when the next shortage hits.
 
Texas10mm said:
As others have stated without knowing what's available it's hard to give you recommendations.

Can you get together with other reloaders and make a bulk order and split the shipping costs?
Click to expand...
No, we can't. It's not a matter of cost. I'm willing to pay the $90 surcharge. The matter is that no online vendor will ship to Alaska as matter of their own choosing; it's simply their company policy not to sell to Alaska. I've beentold this repeatedly, over and over and over. I finally gave up today.
 
WrongHanded said:
I don't mean to be difficult, but don't you have some reloading manuals to tell you what powders may work for which applications?

I mean, for .44 mag Alliant lists powders by bullet weight and design. Hodgdon has a search function that does the same. Reloading manuals list multiple powders for a given bullet.

Now if you'd care to list the loads and guns you already have, I (and of course others) might be able to offer some suggestions on substitute powders that could get you similar performance.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do. And that would tell me what powders I could use. What I' looking for is what powders are similar to those I already use. (Substitute, not outright replace.) For example, what powder is very similar to 4064 that I could put a similar charge weight into a 30-06 case under a 168 grn HPBT projectile and get similar velocities. I understand I'll have to make some adjustments, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel and do R&D to create entirely new loads with entirely different powders. There simply isn't enough powder available in Alaska to start completely over. If I buy some other powder from my manual, and do an entirely new load development process, by the time I've got that load worked up, I will be out of powder again.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
What can I use as a substitute for IMR 4064 and 4895? (assuming H4895 is also gone) Application: M1 Garand and 30-30 Winchester, possibly 243 Winchester.

What can I use as a substitute for Varget, cfe223 or other "AR15" loadings? (This one is for a friend. He just..just...bought a press (hasn't even opened it yet) and has no components. I don't have an AR or load for 223 so I don't even know where to get him started.)
Click to expand...

These cover all the bases from above....

VVN140
AR Comp
RL15
W748
BL-C2

There's more, I'm just going off the top of my head
 
Accurate #9 works great in my 41 Mag. Might be good for your 44.

TAC and X-Terminator work well in the 223/5.56, as does Accurate 2015.

Accurate 4350 makes good -06 loads.

Vihtavori powders tend to linger longer on the shelves, because they cost more.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Yes, I do. And that would tell me what powders I could use. What I' looking for is what powders are similar to those I already use. (Substitute, not outright replace.) For example, what powder is very similar to 4064 that I could put a similar charge weight into a 30-06 case under a 168 grn HPBT projectile and get similar velocities. I understand I'll have to make some adjustments, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel and do R&D to create entirely new loads with entirely different powders. There simply isn't enough powder available in Alaska to start completely over. If I buy some other powder from my manual, and do an entirely new load development process, by the time I've got that load worked up, I will be out of powder again.
Click to expand...

I understand. I have a copy of Lyman 50th, and the 4 edition Cast Book. Both have min and max charges, and velocities and pressures for each, in the data tables. Hodgdon also has that information available. Which means you can scan the data table for a max charge with similar charge weight and velocity, and that will give you powder options.

The information is out there. I'm happy to help with the manuals I have at my disposal, if you could provide the data of the loads you're already using.
 
Well one solution would be to get an 8 lb jug. For your 223/308 and a lot of others tac would work well. Reloader 15, ar comp shooters world match rifle. If you can get the big jug your problem of development and having plenty on hand are resolved.
 
OP, in a lot of cases (no pun intended) you can use small rifle primers in small pistol applications. There will be some variations in primer cup thickness and some primers, CCI for example, will be harder to set off in striker fired pistols (Glock, etc.) but they worked fine in carbines and other pistols.
As all reloading, you'll have to test and see how it works out for you and in your loads.
For the record, I've used Wolf and Tula small rifle primers in various pistols loads with no issues.. The CCIs were as mentioned harder to set off in some guns.
 
I have used large and small rifle primers in my handguns and never had a problem. I don't have any plastic guns. Make a regular habit of it...no. I wouldn't go from pistol to rifle.

I have read on other forums that people have moved to 4350 from 4064 and 4895 in both M1 and other -06. Don't know what the pressure curve is tho and would be leary of M1 use.
 
Since this is a perpetual problem for you, you might consider investing in QuickLoad. It has a function where for a given cartridge and bullet it will generate a rank-ordered list of powders. You can then model/compare them by charge weight, efficiency, and pressure/velocity. I can think of no better way to identify close substitutes.
 
What I' looking for is what powders are similar to those I already use.
Click to expand...

Is a burn rate chart what you are looking for?

0893043A-4D99-4869-B813-CB186F9ADA85.jpeg

There are others that list them in slightly different orders but that will get you in the ballpark.

For .223 as an example I have used (and have “book” data for) powders as fast as H4198 (#72 on the above chart) to as slow as H380 (#103 above), there is lots of stuff in between.
 
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The M1 is a different animal powder wise. Generally you want to stay as close to the 4895 burn rate as possible to avoid damage to the operating rod. Some known alternatives are IMR 4320, W748, Varget, N140, R15. Some others that might work...AR Comp, Vn135, IMR 3031, CFE 223, H335. Most of the above will also work in .223. Some that others have used that I would not personally are BL-C2 (I experienced erratic ignition and a bent op-rod in cold weather following Hornady Garand data), H414/W760 (should be too slow, but I know a guy on CMP forums that swears by it), IMR 4350 (should be too slow, but I've seen it used).

For the handgun powders, IMR/H 4227, AA9, Alliant magnum pistol or Lil' gun will get you close. Some of the mediums slower than HS-6 will make loads with heavy cast bullets suitable for large game, but will not match the velocity of the magnum powders.
 
jmorris said:
Is a burn rate chart what you are looking for?

View attachment 922112

There are others that list them in slightly different orders but that will get you in the ballpark.

For .223 as an example I have used powders as fast as H4198 (#72 on the above chart) to as slow as H380 (#103 above), there is lots of stuff in between.
Click to expand...

So with that informaton, would I simply look for powders as close to what I normally use to get close to same performance? For example, to substitute for IMR4895 (#89 on that list), would I use Vihtavouri N530 or N195 (# 88 and 90 on that list)? I notice that H110 and 296 are adjacent to each other, as are Unique and Uninversal and those two always seem to have similar charge weights, at least in 44 spl.
 
WrongHanded said:
The information is out there. I'm happy to help with the manuals I have at my disposal, if you could provide the data of the loads you're already using.
Click to expand...

Appreciated. Lymans is what I use, too, although I think some of the newer powders and projectiles aren't included, but it's done okay for me.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
So with that informaton, would I simply look for powders as close to what I normally use to get close to same performance? For example, to substitute for IMR4895 (#89 on that list), would I use Vihtavouri N530 or N195 (# 88 and 90 on that list)? I notice that H110 and 296 are adjacent to each other, as are Unique and Uninversal and those two always seem to have similar charge weights, at least in 44 spl.
Click to expand...

Thats the idea. HP-38 and W231 are the same powders as are H-110 and W296, just in different containers. I suppose different conditions an lot variations account for different load data from some books and powder burn rate charts.

FWIW I print one off and mark it with what I have so it makes it easy to see what I have in the range I am looking for. Add in others I have but don’t exist on the list I use.

46E8D0E8-1F21-46E0-B3F4-1906BED95813.jpeg

You can also see a difference between the first list I posted and the one I use and there are others as well. Like reloading books it’s always a good idea to reference as many as you can to gain an average of data or find a trusted source.
 
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