Help me choose a rifle

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RVguy3006

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Greetings everyone,

I am new here and I am in the process of buying a rifle.

I primarily need a rifle for personal defense in bear and hog country but I also hope the rifle would suit me well for home defense too, at least untio I get a handgun (planning to in the future).

Basically I live on two locations, moving frequently within the country. I have a basic property where I plan to put an RV and this is kinda a survival property. I have some fruit trees over there, a garden etc. and that property is in dangerous game country (our bears are not like yours over there in North America but they still can do se serius damage).

I also live in the city a portion of the year.

But mainly I want a rifle that I can use to protect myself and hunt with when I spend time at my bug out property (surrounded by the woods so hogs, deer etc are common sight there, bears sometimes also *GULP*) but if I can potentially use that rifle for my own and my family's defense against 2 legged animals (hope to God I never have to do that but times are ridicoulous), even better.

I have narrowed my choice to 3 rifles:

1) Simonov SKS (7.62 X 39) plus detachable mag for extra capacity

2) Zastava M 76/77 semi auto sniper rifle (military rifle) in either 8 x 57 (M76) or 7.62 X 54 (M77) - these are practically the same, caliber is the only difference and thise 2 calibers are very similar imho

3) Saiga in .308 (although i am having troubles finding the one with 21 inch barrel, mostly 16 inch models are available over here, thoughts on 308 in a 16 inch barrel?)


What are your thoughts on this? I would love to get an AR 10 however here they are starting at 2000 USD and that is out of my price range, all these rifles are under 1k.

With SKS I fear that 7.62 x 39 may be an inadequate caliber, otherwise it seems most attractive to me because ammo is cheap (lots of plinking hehe).

EDIT: I am also open to other suggestions as far as rifles go. The only thing I really want is that the rifle is semi-auto and that it is easy to attach a bayonet to the firearm (for all the listed it is either very easy or they even come with one)


Appreciate your input guys!
 
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Back in the day when I went through several SKSs, I didn't have the best luck with detachable conversion mags. The way I used to reload was to open the box and top it off with loose rounds rather than fight with the stripper clips. That would be especially the case using a 5-shot capacity hunting mag. Other than that, the SKS would be my choice of the three listed due to basic familiarity.

As a bear gun, have you considered a pump or auto shotgun with slugs? I understand these are the preferred choice in bear country.
 
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Hello,

Because of the regulations in my country I am limited to a rifle, dont have a permit for a shotgun.


Yes sks is very nice indeed, the only thing that worries me is less kinetic energy compared to the others.


One question (and i dotn want to come off as rude just genuinely interested). If a bullet from my rifle carries say 3000 ft lbs of energy and provided that it is an expanding bullet that wont simply go through, why is that inferior to a pump shotgun slug producing similar amount of energy?

I understand that a slug has more frontal area hence it slows down faster inside an animal and transfers more kinetic energy, but... isnt that the whole point of expanding rifle ammo?

Also, isnt the hydrostatic shock from a 2800 fps bullet desirable too?
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_brown_bear

Largest specimens of the species are not really easily found around here, but still, an encounter with a sizeable animal is not off the charts.


And dont get me wrong, i dont want to shoot the bears.

But my friend had few encounters which ended up in him being inside his house all day because a bear decided to hang around his property and losing whole day of work which sucks when you only have weekends off work to be able to get thigns done at your property.
Thankfully ended well for both of them (friend has no firearms).

I really hope a warning shot or two, from a safe place (a balcony e.g.) would make the bear go away.
 
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RVguy3006 said:
One question (and i dotn want to come off as rude just genuinely interested). If a bullet from my rifle carries say 3000 ft lbs of energy and provided that it is an expanding bullet that wont simply go through, why is that inferior to a pump shotgun slug producing similar amount of energy?
Click to expand...

My understanding is the shotgun/slug preference is in large part a matter of economics. A decent quality pump shotgun with supply of slugs is about a $300-400 investment.

FWIW, a fellow I used to correspond with carried a Lee Endfield No4 with a folding stock as his survival gun in Northern Canada. He was a commercial archaeologist and flew into remote regions by helicopter, so space was at a premium. One of his principal concerns was bears.

No4Folder02.jpg
 
RVguy3006 said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_brown_bear

Largest specimens of the species are not really easily found around here, but still, an encounter with a sizeable animal is not off the charts.


And dont get me wrong, i dont want to shoot the bears.

But my friend had few encounters which ended up in him being inside his house all day because a bear decided to hang around his property and losing whole day of work which sucks when you only have weekends off work to be able to get thigns done at your property.
Thankfully ended well for both of them (friend has no firearms).

I really hope a warning shot or two, from a safe place (a balcony e.g.) would make the bear go away.
Click to expand...

A 16 inch Saiga 308 will do exactly what you're asking. I'd personally prefer this if I could get it. I owned and foolishly sold 2 of them
https://fimegroup.com/vepr-rifle/vepr-super-308-win/
 
RVguy3006 said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_brown_bear

Largest specimens of the species are not really easily found around here, but still, an encounter with a sizeable animal is not off the charts.


And dont get me wrong, i dont want to shoot the bears.

But my friend had few encounters which ended up in him being inside his house all day because a bear decided to hang around his property and losing whole day of work which sucks when you only have weekends off work to be able to get thigns done at your property.
Thankfully ended well for both of them (friend has no firearms).

I really hope a warning shot or two, from a safe place (a balcony e.g.) would make the bear go away.
Click to expand...
IDK what the laws allow, but what about an ar-15 with an upper in big bore for bear and 5.56 or 7.62 for home?
 
If you plan to shoot regularly I would see which ammo is readily available and cost. If I just had to shoot a bear I would not want to with 7.62x39. Pretty much leaves 308 or 7.62x54.
 
Since you're not a recreational shooter and may only shoot a few rounds per year, you might want to consider a short-barreled (18") Remington 760 Pump Rifle in .308 Winchester. They're pretty much foolproof, shoot very accurately, and may be safer for most owners than semi-autos. Semi-autos are also more demanding of maintenance, since they get dirtier from shooting and more difficult to maintain. The Rem. pumps use detachable 4 shot magazines, but higher-capacity mags may also be available. The .308 rounds are powerful for both bear and defensive use.
 
The shorter Saiga gets my vote over the much longer Zastava. Unless you were certain you'd have a lot of warning time to get on to target.

Out of the caliber choices, I'd go with 8mauser, then 7.62x51--but that's bias based on the very limited choices I have in 7.62x54R, especially since you are possibly dealing with jackelopes as well as U. arctus arctus.

Only way I'd recommend a rimmed cartridge would be if you could find a lever-action rifle, which probably better suits your situation.
 
Between the SKS and Saiga, the Saiga for sure. Much more accurate in my experience. Between the 7.62x39 and the .308 definitely the .308. The .308 will have much greater range and energy although at close range the 7.62x39 will work. I don't have any experience with the other rifle but it seems pretty heavy. and bulky for hunting. The cartridges are Ok and in the same general range as the .308 as far as power.
 
Hello everyone,

Thank you all for advice. Yes, I am definitely more leaning towards the Saiga or Zastava instead of SKS, even though I really like the SKS design. After talking to my friend about his bear encounters yesterday I for sure do not want to feel undergunned haha.

The 8 X 57 has similar performance to 30-06 I believe, and 308 is just a tad weaker. But in practice the difference is not very much, at least I believe so by looking at velocity and energy data.


@CapnMac very good point about the shorter Saiga being more manouverable and faster to get on target. Total length of the Saiga is 35.5 inches compared to Zastava which is 44-45 inches, a significant difference.

As far as velocities for the 308, it seem like there is a difference of about 100 fps between 20 and 16 inch barrel. It doesnt seem like much really.

I actually never compared agility with shorter and a longer rifle (as in this situation). Does it really make a big difference in the time you need to put your aim on target?

Sorry I only shot from a boring, either standing or half kneeling position, never tried any "tactical course" (but I definitely will in the future).


One thing is for sure. If I decide to go with 16.5 inch Saiga it is going to be one hell of a fun at range, and lots of stares hahah at the big fireball it will create upon a shot.
 
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Just out of curiosity are you in Romania RVguy3006?

I wouldn’t want a 7.62x39 for brown bear. In addition if you want one rifle for all of your stated purposes then compromises must be made. I’d go .308.
 
cdb1 said:
Just out of curiosity are you in Romania RVguy3006?

I wouldn’t want a 7.62x39 for brown bear. In addition if you want one rifle for all of your stated purposes then compromises must be made. I’d go .308.
Click to expand...
No, I am from Croatia.

Yes I understand compromises are mandatory in this case. 308 Saiga looks nice. 8 mil mauser Zastava is also fine however as someone pointed out it may be a bit bulky at 45 inches of length.

That Super Vepr in .308 is really nice, however it is not available in Europe, have not been able to find it anywhere.
 
I find a shorter rifle to be much quicker to get and target and easier to carry and mount with the center of gravity between my hands. But I have been trained to shoot that way and also have a lot of experience hunting with shotguns. Of course in thick cover like brush shorter is better. I don't think you will miss the additional velocity at normal hunting ranges. I mean under 200 yards or meters.
 
Welcome to THR.
RVguy3006 said:
I primarily need a rifle for personal defense in bear and hog country but I also hope the rifle would suit me well for home defense too.

But mainly I want a rifle that I can use to protect myself and hunt with when I spend time at my bug out property (surrounded by the woods so hogs, deer etc are common sight there, bears sometimes
Click to expand...
I have shot SKS and longer heavy barreled version of AK (NHM 91) along with Saiga .308.

For what you are describing, I would suggest the Saiga .308 as larger caliber will give you more/better hunting options.

As to 16" vs 21", the 16" barrel is "heavy barrel" and will produce less barrel whip than the longer barrel to produce comparable groups at 100 yards. My Saiga averaged 2"-2.5" groups at 100 yards using various factory ammunition, plenty accurate for hunting/defensive purposes.

Also, the scope mount option on the Saiga is much better than scope mount options for SKS.
 
The shorter rifle will be lighter and handier. Another point is that a red dot optic will be the fastest optic for target acquisition and getting hits on a target at under 200m. Over that range a magnified optic would be better but they are slower up close.

BSW
 
For .308 on a Kalashnikov, skip the Saiga and find a Vepr. If you’re lucky, you may even find one in 30-06 (superior round imo, but not going down that road as everyone has a preference). I say to go with the Vepr as it is based on the rpk, meaning it has a thicker receiver and a heavy barrel (barrel should be thicker than the Saiga). It will be superior in every way to the Saiga with the lone exception being it will weigh a little more.

You can get one in sporter configuration with the walnut stock, which is extremely comfortable, or you can get one more configured as a traditional AK. See here for one that is still available BNIB with folding stock:
https://www.k-var.com/molot-vepr-ak...ar-stock-with-one-5-and-one-10-round-magazine
There’s also the a Super Vepr in 308 if you want something more like hunting rifle.

You could also hunt down a Zastava PAP M77PS in 308.
 
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Since you're talking Eurasian bears, the 7,62x54R, 7,92x57 and 7,62x51 cartridges are the ones for the task. Of those, X54r and X51 will be the easiest to find frangible or varmint ammunition more suitable for an urban/defense setting. I own a PSL, Romanian rifle similar to the M76, and have fired the M76 overseas. Both are rather heavy and unwieldy, not suitable for any sort of home defense other than long range standoff. This leaves you with the Saiga of your options.

Others I would consider in your price range if available would be one of the straight pull bolt actions in a 6.5mm or larger centerfire caliber. Don't know the availability or legality of lever action rifles in your area, but one of these such as a BLR, Henry Long range, Savage M99, Sako, or even a Marlin, Winchester .30-30 would be better IMHO than the SKS. A heavy handgun caliber such as .44 or .454 in a lever rifle would also be suitable but marginal on large bears.
 
Although I am not a fan or a rifle for Home Defense, I like my Ruger .44 Mag Carbine. If I put a few 240 grainers into a bear, I would hope he would get the message and they do expand nice. I have shot Boar with it and stopped them cold and it is short, easy to swing, reliable and holds quite a few rounds.

Bob
 
RVguy3006 said:
Greetings everyone,

I am new here and I am in the process of buying a rifle.

I primarily need a rifle for personal defense in bear and hog country but I also hope the rifle would suit me well for home defense too, at least untio I get a handgun (planning to in the future).

Basically I live on two locations, moving frequently within the country. I have a basic property where I plan to put an RV and this is kinda a survival property. I have some fruit trees over there, a garden etc. and that property is in dangerous game country (our bears are not like yours over there in North America but they still can do se serius damage).

I also live in the city a portion of the year.

But mainly I want a rifle that I can use to protect myself and hunt with when I spend time at my bug out property (surrounded by the woods so hogs, deer etc are common sight there, bears sometimes also *GULP*) but if I can potentially use that rifle for my own and my family's defense against 2 legged animals (hope to God I never have to do that but times are ridicoulous), even better.

I have narrowed my choice to 3 rifles:

1) Simonov SKS (7.62 X 39) plus detachable mag for extra capacity

2) Zastava M 76/77 semi auto sniper rifle (military rifle) in either 8 x 57 (M76) or 7.62 X 54 (M77) - these are practically the same, caliber is the only difference and thise 2 calibers are very similar imho

3) Saiga in .308 (although i am having troubles finding the one with 21 inch barrel, mostly 16 inch models are available over here, thoughts on 308 in a 16 inch barrel?)


What are your thoughts on this? I would love to get an AR 10 however here they are starting at 2000 USD and that is out of my price range, all these rifles are under 1k.

With SKS I fear that 7.62 x 39 may be an inadequate caliber, otherwise it seems most attractive to me because ammo is cheap (lots of plinking hehe).

EDIT: I am also open to other suggestions as far as rifles go. The only thing I really want is that the rifle is semi-auto and that it is easy to attach a bayonet to the firearm (for all the listed it is either very easy or they even come with one)


Appreciate your input guys!
Click to expand...
Palmetto State and DiamondBack both sell AR10s for under $1000.00
 
You have a lot of choices and I don,t know prices and availability. But Have you thought of a SKS for home and a M44 or 38 for the bear country. The 44 has the pig sticker on it. The 54R will take care of any bear. The x39 probably would too. Its pretty close to the 30-30 and thats taken tons of bears over the years. You have 10 fast semi auto shots.
 
It’s problematic to get an optic on an SKS that’s any good. With the AK based rifles you can use the side rail for some reasonable optics choices.

BSW
 
RVguy3006, the ability to attach a bayonet greatly condenses your pool of options. Can you obtain most U.S. made firearms or are there restrictions?
 
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