FL Congressman says ATF planning to ban pistol braces

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I agree, if as many people owned machine guns as automobiles, the registry wouldn’t have been shut down in ‘86.

The reality is the numbers of owners are very small and other folks that should support them are happy to throw them under the bus, like the bumpstocks.

The only tiny groups that get a lot of support are on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Maybe they should all be made in rainbow colors and only marketed to the LGBT crown, they would be safe then.
Can we get the Pink Pistols to vocally support AR pistols?
 
The difference is that those designs, while ungainly, were originally designed as pistols (i.e., intended to be fired with one hand). The AR-15 was originally designed as a rifle. Even the Vietnam-era short-barrel, telescoping stock carbine (the XM-177) was a bit of a forced kludge job.

The law (quoted above by LiveLife) says "The term Pistol means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand."

The receiver of a firearm is just one part of the design. People have been designing pistols based on any type of action you can think of, including using actions that also are used to build rifles, for literally hundreds of years at this point. What is special about the AR receiver that makes it is uniquely disqualified for incorporation into a pistol design?
 
Congressman Gaetz Calls on ATF to Cease Plans Restricting Arm Brace Usage - https://gaetz.house.gov/media/hottakespress/gaetz-calls-atf-cease-plans-restricting-arm-brace-usage

Congressman Matt Gaetz announced today on his podcast the ATF is crafting secret rules restricting the possession of certain pistol braces by American citizens, and that he has sent them a letter demanding they stop.

"We understand that ATF is currently considering restricting one arm brace model owned by over 700,000 Americans," Congressman Gaetz writes along with six other members of Congress. "We strongly urge ATF to cease taking any actions and reconsider or rescind any secret determinations which call into question the legality of firearms owned by millions of law-abiding Americans."

“There is always a need to vindicate our Second Amendment rights,” Gaetz says on his podcast, "Hot Takes with Matt Gaetz."

He explains that even during very conservative administrations, like President Trump’s, some do “try to make it more difficult to acquire things that shooters need and gun owners need, for safety and for the unique circumstances that an individual may have.”

The congressman emphasizes that Americans must remain proactive in defense of their Second Amendment Rights.

“But now, what we find, is that the ATF is making it very difficult for people to have arm braces. They’re changing standards and changing rules.” Gaetz continues: “And I am particularly frustrated when our government, at the administrative and executive level, goes beyond their grant of authority in our Constitution and in our Federal Statutes. Nothing gives anyone at ATF the ability to constrain the use of arm braces.”

“So the breaking news is this – I’ll be sending a letter to the Department of Justice, asking for a review of the decisions made by ATF and asking that ATF stop, in this crazy effort to limit access to arm braces for people who seek to have them.”

Congressman Gaetz addresses Attorney General William Barr and Acting Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Regina Lombardo in his letter, and says that he is concerned about the ATF’s practice of creating secret regulation, which could have devastating impacts on law-abiding citizens.

Gaetz and his colleagues pose three specific questions to the Attorney General and the Acting Director:

1. What specific criteria does ATF use to determine whether a firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder?

2. What specific ATF publications are available for Americans to determine whether their firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder?

3. How many firearms with affixed arm braces have been evaluated by the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division in support of other law enforcement agencies or criminal prosecutions?
“This practice not only burdens the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding American citizens," Gaetz concludes, "but has recently been used by ATF to stifle innovation within the firearms industry and prosecute unwitting firearm owners.”​

Link to the letter Congressman Gaetz along with other members of Congress sent to Attorney General Barr - https://gaetz.house.gov/sites/gaetz.house.gov/files/wysiwyg_uploaded/For Web 6-16-2020 DOJ-ATF pistol brace letter final.pdf
 
If one would consider pistol braces as “workarounds”, they should also consider that the NAF they are getting around to be a law that should never have been codified.

I agree...no reason for a pistol brace to be outlawed...I also feel like a completely operational 10” barrel firearm with a stock, suppressor, verticals grip, and high capacity magazines (Or any individual components) should be a “cash and carry” purchase by any free citizen.

I agree with all of that. I imagine nearly everyone here would as well.
 
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Congressman Gaetz Calls on ATF to Cease Plans Restricting Arm Brace Usage

Link to the letter Congressman Gaetz along with other members of Congress sent to Attorney General Barr - https://gaetz.house.gov/sites/gaetz.house.gov/files/wysiwyg_uploaded/For Web 6-16-2020 DOJ-ATF pistol brace letter final.pdf

June 16, 2020

The Honorable William Barr, Attorney General
The Honorable Regina Lombardo, Acting Director Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives

Dear Attorney General Barr and Acting Director Lombardo:

We are deeply concerned about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ (“ATF”) practice of relying on arbitrary, non-public standards to promulgate general firearms policy hidden from public scrutiny and awareness. This practice not only burdens the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding American citizens but has recently been used by ATF to stifle innovation within the firearms industry and prosecute unwitting firearm owners. Such practice is not only inconsistent with the letter of the law, it creates a remarkably untenable situation wherein even those most knowledgeable about matters of law, much less the general public, have no idea what ATF considers to be lawful and unlawful. Further, such arbitrary Agency action without any solid foundation in law has the potential to create overnight felons of millions of law-abiding gun owners, firearm manufacturers and Federal Firearms Licensees all without ever notifying those individuals that the ATF has — in secret — come up with a novel interpretation of law without proper comment, review or notice. This leads to a dangerous violation of citizens’ Due Process rights.

One prime example of this practice is the Agency’s efforts to restrict the use of pistols affixed with accessories known as arm braces. Arm braces are an accessory in common usage, designed and intended to assist shooters with limited mobility by securing pistols to their forearm, thereby adding an additional point of support to ensure safety and accuracy in operation. These braces provide a second point of contact between the shooter and the firearm: 1) the hand gripping the frame of the pistol, and 2) the brace attached to the shooters forearm. Additionally, it is also common that braces may be used even more effectively by providing a third point of contact between the shooter and the firearm. For example: 1) the shooters hand gripping the frame of the pistol 2) the brace attached to the shooters forearm and 3) use of a shooting rest or shooting sticks. The brace concept was inspired by the needs of disabled combat veterans who, although still enjoying recreational shooting, could not reliably control heavy pistols without assistance.

ATF initially welcomed the advent of pistol arm braces. In 2012, ATF correctly determined that the attachment of arm braces to large pistol platforms does not constitute the manufacture of a shortbarreled rifle. This determination, consistent with law, clarified that attachment of a pistol-affixed arm brace did not constitute the making of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) subject to registration requirements under the National Firearms Act (“NFA”), 26 U.S.C. §§ 5801–5872, and made these important safety tools more readily available to those who need them. Central to ATF’s determination was its finding that arm braces are not synonymous with shoulder stocks and thus not designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder. Since ATF’s initial determination, over two million arm braces have been sold to gun owners. Additionally, hundreds of firearm manufacturers have sold over one million firearms pre-configured with arm braces.

Despite initially welcoming the introduction of pistol arm braces, it has come to our attention that ATF is now attempting to restrict some of the most popular arm brace configurations by creating non-public standards that are not based in statute or regulation. For example, in determining whether an item is an arm brace or stock, ATF has, through private letters, created an inexhaustive list of what it considers “objective design features.” With no basis in law, one of the “indicators” chosen to make these determinations is “length of pull,” which is the distance from the rear of the stabilizing brace to the trigger. Unbeknownst to the general public, ATF has ordained in private determination letters that it considers “any firearm with a ‘length of pull’ over 13-1/2 inches to be designed to be fired from the shoulder,” thereby making it a short-barreled rifle. However, ATF has also privately proclaimed that even firearms under this length of pull can be classified as a short-barreled rifle, if ATF identifies other (and often unspecified) applicable “indicators.” It is not clear what authority ATF has to establish these hidden standards.

Even more troubling are reports that these non-public standards are being used to criminally prosecute unsuspecting gun owners. Given ATF’s refusal to explain these standards, it is impossible for the public to comply with ATF’s ever-changing body of secret law. Some unwitting manufacturers, who supposedly failed to comply with these hidden standards, have already been forced by ATF to recall thousands of firearms for destruction from innocent customers. Other companies are currently being threatened by ATF to halt sales and recall existing products or face criminal and civil penalties. To criminally charge an individual or threaten a company based on one ATF employee’s opinion of whether an arm brace shares enough unpublished “design features” with a shoulder stock is an appalling abuse of power and shows a blatant disregard for due process.

We understand that ATF is currently considering restricting one arm brace model owned by over 700,000 Americans, despite it being functionally no different from the more than ten arm brace designs already approved by ATF. Were ATF allowed to proceed with issuing this determination letter or others, close to one million law abiding Americans could be made felons overnight.

Accordingly, we respectfully request responses to the following questions:

1. What specific criteria does ATF use to determine whether a firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder?

2. What specific ATF publications are available for Americans to determine whether their firearm is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder?

3. How many firearms with affixed arm braces have been evaluated by the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division in support of other law enforcement agencies or criminal prosecutions? We strongly urge ATF to cease taking any actions and reconsider or rescind any secret determinations which call into question the legality of firearms owned by millions of law-abiding Americans. Thank you for your attention to this matter.​

Sincerely,

Matt Gaetz, Member of Congress
Neal P. Dunn, M.D., Member of Congress
Bill Posey, Member of Congress
W. Gregory Steube, Member of Congress
John Rutherford, Member of Congress
Ted S. Yoho, DVM, Member of Congress
Daniel Webster, Member of Congress

CC: The Honorable Jeffrey Rosen Deputy Attorney General​
 
I will make note of these names and will support their campaign for the rest of my retirement.
  • Matt Gaetz, Member of Congress
  • Neal P. Dunn, M.D., Member of Congress
  • Bill Posey, Member of Congress
  • W. Gregory Steube, Member of Congress
  • John Rutherford, Member of Congress
  • Ted S. Yoho, DVM, Member of Congress
  • Daniel Webster, Member of Congress
 
Maybe there's a segment I overlooked, or possibly there is law regarding it's use...is it illegal to put a stock on a TC Contender if the barrel is under 16" as well? Old Buntline type revolvers?
When things are designed to assist people with impairments, naturally people less impaired or not impaired will find it can make their life easier or more enjoyable. Pistol braces are just one. The winch for cocking a crossbow is another. To say able-bodied people shouldn't benefit from it...well, go tell the lazy slobs to get off the scooters at Walmart. Save them for people who need them.
 
It's not just the argument about whether braces should be legal or not when I made my statements. Just look at people going back and forth about what a pistol is or is not. Or if an AR pistol should be a pistol since the receiver was originally designed for a rifle. Which also goes for all bolt action pistols and the Ruger Charger since the original design of both were for rifles.

It's really simple. If you personally do not like a certain type of firearm then don't own that type. We should NOT be arguing about small nuances about different types of firearms and we should all be doing our part to stop any infringements.

An example of sub groups of firearm owners going against other groups just happened here in Missouri. The "FUDD" types tried to get AR pistols banned from use during the alternative deer hunting season regardless if they have a brace or not. It was all because those evil black pistols are not the traditional hunting revolver or semiautomatic. That did get shot down thankfully, but not with some changes to Missouri hunting laws. You can still use an AR pistol with or without a brace but OAL must be under 26" OAL.

As far as braces go, I am disabled and they do help me to shoot my AR pistols.
 
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Maybe there's a segment I overlooked, or possibly there is law regarding it's use...is it illegal to put a stock on a TC Contender if the barrel is under 16" as well?

That makes an SBR, which requires the tax stamp. You can have a basically any length barrel as long as you don’t have a stock, but once the stock is installed the barrel must be over 16” or it must be a tax-paid SBR to be legal. SBR without stamp = felony.
 
I think Disabled American Veterans (DAV) should file a lawsuit if braces are banned. My understanding is that braces were created to enable a disabled veteran to fire one-handed.

Does the ATF want to be known for limiting disabled people, veterans or not, from executing their second amendment right?
 
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/representative-gaetz-goes-after-atfs-apparent-plans-to-restrict-pistol-braces/ said:
SB Tactical CEO Bosco explained to TTAG that nothing has changed at ATF since about 2015 regarding pistol braces. There is no new push for restrictions on arm braces; this is the same push that has been ongoing.

Here’s SB Tactical’s official statement on the matter:

Although this may seem alarming, it is, in fact, nothing new. Since 2015, SB Tactical has been actively engaged in discussions with the ATF and working tirelessly to encourage them to provide clear and public guidance regarding what constitutes a brace and the standards by which braces are measured. At this time, we are unaware of any plans by the ATF to make any announcements regarding Pistol Stabilizing Braces. We are grateful that Congressman Matt Gaetz, Bill Posey, John Rutherford, Daniel Webster, Neil P. Dunn, W. Gregory Steube, and Ted S. Yoho are committed to protecting the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans.

So, what has changed that led Rep. Gaetz to publish this notice? Congress has taken notice. They are looking into the ATF’s practice of arbitrarily, suddenly, and “secretly” (in so far as they make no public mention) creating and changing firearms regulations…and then attempting to prosecute based on these rules.

For instance, the 13.5-inch length of pull maximum for pistol braces that nobody knew was a thing and led to the prosecution of this guy. Congress is finally doing a deep dive and finding out exactly why we’ve been complaining about the ATF and why we’ve been contacting our representatives about them. They have apparently now seen how this alphabet agency legislates by fiat, creating secret, unpublished rules and then using them to go after law-abiding citizens.
 
I think Disabled American Veterans (DAV) should file a lawsuit if braces are banned. My understanding is that braces were created to enable a disabled veteran to fire one-handed.

Does the ATF want to be known for limiting disabled people, veterans or not, from executing their second amendment right?

I'll have to bring that up to DAV since I am a life member.
 
This thread is beginning to look like a Monty Python skit.
Agreed http://www.montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_1/53.htm

Since we have some light from TAG we'll close this and hope for some more accurate information.

We must always be vigilant about what ATF is doing, but the issue appears not that a brace ban is in the offing, but that backroom interpretations by ATF lead to prosecutions of citizens trying to obey the law and that's akin to making up the rules as ATF goes.
 
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