Question about private purchase

bleach · Jun 18, 2020

OK here's the question. A friend is looking to make a private purchase. In our state, private purchase is legal, no Background check. Seller is requiring a CCW to prove legal residence and qualification to purchase (not required by state). Friend has no known reason that he should not be allowed to purchase (holds security clearance), but doesn't have CCW. He asked me if I would pick up the gun for him. I declined because I feel this is pushing into a grey area. He understands.
But I'm curious if I'm being over paranoid or if this would be considered a straw purchase.

But no responses here are going to change my mind, just curious.

AlexanderA · Jun 18, 2020

Straw purchase.

George P · Jun 18, 2020

Is it in a private sale where the buyer is NOT a prohibited person?

dogtown tom · Jun 18, 2020

bleach said:
But I'm curious if I'm being over paranoid or if this would be considered a straw purchase..

Absolutely NOT a straw purchase.......because the seller is not a licensed dealer.
ATF considers it a straw purchase when someone other than the actual buyer/transferee completes the Form 4473/NICS check on behalf of the actual buyer/transferee. Being that your state does not require private party transfers to be transferred by an FFL............yes, much ado about nothing.

Theohazard · Jun 18, 2020

AlexanderA said:
Straw purchase.

No. Like Tom said, the actual crime committed during a straw purchase is when someone lies on question 11a. of the 4473. If the transfer doesn’t involve a 4473 then it’s impossible to commit a straw purchase.

Theohazard · Jun 18, 2020

George P said:
Is it in a private sale where the buyer is NOT a prohibited person?

A straw purchase has nothing to do with whether anyone involved is a prohibited person.

1942bull · Jun 19, 2020

Do not get involved. Why become a third party to. Gun purchase. If your friend cannot meet the seller’s conditions he ought to buy a gun elsewhere. Just keep in mind that “no good deed goes unpunished.” Effectively you would be buying the gun to resell the gun. That makes you the seller. Do not think of yourself as the friend’s purchasing gent. You will be the purchaser, and then become the seller. Is there possible liability as the seller? I do not know, but I would not want to find out that being a nice guy made a problem for me.

GEM · Jun 19, 2020

Tell him to get a permit. There are always other guns to purchase.

TomJ · Jun 19, 2020

The other question is whether by buying the gun with the intention of reselling it to your friend you're required to be a FFL.

LiveLife · Jun 19, 2020

bleach said:
Seller is requiring a CCW to prove legal residence and qualification to purchase (not required by state). Friend has no known reason that he should not be allowed to purchase (holds security clearance), but doesn't have CCW.

What's the issue?

Can't the friend prove residency and qualification to purchase without you? And why not?

What would the "friend" do if he didn't have you available? Get a CCW permit, find another means to satisfy the seller or buy another gun from the different seller.

I think this is his problem, not yours.

If he is your "friend", he should not impose on you like this.

bleach said:
But no responses here are going to change my mind, just curious.

If the situation was switched, would you impose on your friend?

PapaG · Jun 19, 2020

Theohazard said:
A straw purchase has nothing to do with whether anyone involved is a prohibited person.

I believe it is. At least the training I had to take in IL to be certified to work in firearms retail sales said it was. Buying for someone who cannot buy themself. Though this case is private sale makes that moot.

Kleanbore · Jun 19, 2020

"Cannot" is not the operative word.

GEM · Jun 19, 2020

Just as a thought, a friend of mine is selling a collection and won't sell unless you have a TX LTC. I think he would be really annoyed to find out a seller played a trick on him. I won't do it, it is a touch dishonest to the seller. If the gun was bought by him and is traced through the ATF back to him if there is a crime, I might see if there were some kind of legal action I could take against the intermediary.

Theohazard · Jun 19, 2020

PapaG said:
I believe it is. At least the training I had to take in IL to be certified to work in firearms retail sales said it was. Buying for someone who cannot buy themself.

No, the Supreme Court ruled in the 2014 case US v Abramski that the crime of a straw purchase is simply the act of lying on question 11a. of the 4473 as to who the actual transferee/buyer is. It has nothing to do with whether or not the person receiving the firearm can’t buy a firearm themselves.

Sure, transferring a firearm to a person you know to be a prohibited person is also a crime, but it’s a different crime than a straw purchase.

bdickens · Jun 19, 2020

If the guy has a security clearance, getting a permit should be a cakewalk.

alsaqr · Jun 23, 2020

bleach said:
He asked me if I would pick up the gun for him.

Don't do it.

ojibweindian · Jun 23, 2020

bleach said:
OK here's the question. A friend is looking to make a private purchase. In our state, private purchase is legal, no Background check. Seller is requiring a CCW to prove legal residence and qualification to purchase (not required by state). Friend has no known reason that he should not be allowed to purchase (holds security clearance), but doesn't have CCW. He asked me if I would pick up the gun for him. I declined because I feel this is pushing into a grey area. He understands.
But I'm curious if I'm being over paranoid or if this would be considered a straw purchase.

But no responses here are going to change my mind, just curious.

If you're uncomfortable with it, don't.

ojibweindian · Jun 23, 2020

bdickens said:
If the guy has a security clearance, getting a permit should be a cakewalk.

I wonder. I know of a person convicted of assault who obtained a security clearance. Not sure if assault would preclude someone from getting a permit.

armedwalleye · Jun 23, 2020

If a seller chooses to go above the requirement of the law to require a permit, while it may limit his market, and the question of limiting his liability may be unproven, it's still his requirement. Go along to eval the gun, sure. Offer advice, thoughts, etc., sure. Go get the gun for someone else? Not for a brother, even, and not under any circumstances. Everyone needs to draw their own line.

Frulk · Jun 23, 2020

Why doesn’t he show his driver’s license as proof of state residency? Current address is on there. If he’s military he’s exempt in some cases from that requirement and then he can show his AD ID card.

Edited to add: Never mind my comment. My suggestion only ensures he’s a state resident and doesn’t also ensure he has no skeletons in his closet that the CCW would preclude. I’ll shut up now and let the big people talk.

Ignition Override · Jun 25, 2020

dogtown tom: Very interesting.
I had no idea about a "straw purchase" only applying to an FFL.

Considering how many people are estimated to make private gun deals, and then hours or days afterwards, 'suddenly' decide to sell to friend or family, this must include a large number of guns.

RETG · Jun 26, 2020

bdickens said:
If the guy has a security clearance, getting a permit should be a cakewalk.

Not necessarily true. There are different levels of security clearances and a security clearance is different than a background check (and different levels of background checks).

Question about private purchase

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