9mm HP vs 223 FMJ
- Thread starter Krones
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Mauser lover
Member
16 inch barrel (or 14.5 with a pinned/welded shroud/comp/flash hider) is what I'm wanting in a carbine for close work. I'm going to assume your choices are equally reliable and pleasant to shoot (decent trigger, sights [or sight], etc).
9mm.
Solely because my ears will survive better. Folks thinking that a hot .357 Mag is great for home defense, take note, it's going to be much louder inside your house than where you normally shoot! Even if you practice at an indoor range.
I'd go for a .45 AR carbine if its purpose was to be a specialized home defense arm. Not because 9mm is "too small", but because the .45 is lower pressure.
9mm.
Solely because my ears will survive better. Folks thinking that a hot .357 Mag is great for home defense, take note, it's going to be much louder inside your house than where you normally shoot! Even if you practice at an indoor range.
I'd go for a .45 AR carbine if its purpose was to be a specialized home defense arm. Not because 9mm is "too small", but because the .45 is lower pressure.
My concern is that at close range 9mm from a rifle may be moving much faster than the HP bullets are designed to work. If so you might get way too much expansion way too fast and not enough penetration. Some of the heavier for caliber 147 gr 9mm loads might be a better option. And I might be overthinking the situation.
I'd like to see some ballistics gel testing done from 9mm rifles before deciding, but based on what I know at this time I'd trust the 223. Or for that matter I'd trust 9mm from a handgun where I know it will work. I'll worry about my hearing later. If the bullets don't work then the hearing doesn't matter.
I'd like to see some ballistics gel testing done from 9mm rifles before deciding, but based on what I know at this time I'd trust the 223. Or for that matter I'd trust 9mm from a handgun where I know it will work. I'll worry about my hearing later. If the bullets don't work then the hearing doesn't matter.
Sour Kraut
Member
357 Mag is one of the worst on the ears, as is 223/556. It’s not just decibels, but the frequency IMHO. Sharp crack from the 357 and 223. Not debating what others may have experienced, that’s just been my experience ....YMMV
Depending on the load and/or decibel chart:
357 mag 164 dB
223. 165 dB
45 ACP. 157 dB
9mm. 159 dB
Mauser lover
Member
Ha! I didn't really think about that! However, there are probably enough 9mm loads out there that I'm sure you'll be able to find one that performs as desired.
I seem to hear this sort of thing from quite a few guys who can't hear when I talk anymore...
Nah, I don't need the muffs! We've gotta get this log off the road! (Chainsaw...)
Stop to put in plugs? The shop pays by the job! (Auto mechanics with pneumatic impact tools. My dad has been a mechanic all his life, and we can tell.)
Carpenters run nailguns and saws all the time without ear protection.
Metal fab guys run grinders, saws, etc. without protection, even welders can get loud!
I don't see why we shouldn't consider a usually permanent injury to a sensory organ any less of a real injury than, say, taking a bullet from the bad guy, or getting a nasty knife wound. Sure, the noise of my gun going off is not going to kill me right now. But if I'm on my bike later and I cannot hear the pickup coming up behind me, my loss of hearing could well end up with me being dead.
In addition to the physical risks that come with hearing loss, it isn't fun living or communicating with someone with hearing loss.
What is equivalent to your hearing? What would you give up? Half of your sight? Your left arm? Can we change how much hearing we loose by choosing which gun to use if we really needed it? I think so, which is why my "home defense" firearm is a .45. It is effective, it is easy to shoot, I've got plenty of bullets, but I've only got one shot at keeping my hearing, and I don't intend to lose it (at least not as much of it) because someone broke into my house without giving me warning to put the ear protection on.
G.E. Lee
Member
I never much noticed the report of an M-16 with a twenty inch barrel. I fired thousands of shots in Basic, AIT, and Vietnam. I don't even remember being bothered by full auto fire. On the other hand, a 16 inch barrel AR 15 is unpleasantly--even painfully-- loud even in a big, open field.
Mauser lover
Member
Let's try this again. I don't think it came across well in my last post.
I'm guaranteed at least an injury if I'm shooting an AR inside. Why choose to be injured? Sure, if my PCC doesn't work as well as expected I could die, but why choose to go into a fight where I'm at least guaranteed a permanent injury?
(Note, I'm an overconfident competition shooter who really does expect to win a gunfight with an intruder-if there are ever winners in a gunfight)
Maybe that conveyed my message better. Maybe not.
I'm guaranteed at least an injury if I'm shooting an AR inside. Why choose to be injured? Sure, if my PCC doesn't work as well as expected I could die, but why choose to go into a fight where I'm at least guaranteed a permanent injury?
(Note, I'm an overconfident competition shooter who really does expect to win a gunfight with an intruder-if there are ever winners in a gunfight)
Maybe that conveyed my message better. Maybe not.
LiveLife
Member
When we lived in a metropolitan city with known home invasion robberies by multiple attackers/gang members, we switched from shot gun/pistol to .223/.300 BLK ARs and pistol backup for both wife and I for higher velocity rounds and 30 round magazines.
Having shot USPSA, I was being recruited hard to shoot 3-gun match and got to practice with other match shooters on the virtues of pistol caliber carbines (PCC) in terms of being able to engage multiple targets faster with faster follow up shots than .223/5.56 ARs. And when we moved to our rural retirement location with less threat of multiple attacker home invasion, our thinking did not change and we switched to 9mm AR based carbines with 30-33 round magazines. I think we would have made the switch even if we didn't move away from the metropolitan city because cheaper 9mm reloads (I can reload for just over $5/50 rounds) allow us to shoot more often and train more often. (We also got CMMG 22LR conversion kits so we can plink/train with our ARs at cheaper than 9mm cost)
I also bought Just Right carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP barrel options but decided to keep all the defensive PCCs chambered in 9mm simply due to lower cost of reloads. I figured 9mm premium JHP ammunition driven 150-200 fps faster isn't a bad thing.
We had various THR discussions on wearing hearing protection inside the house and believe me, muzzle blast from pistols and .223/5.56 carbines will leave you with painful ringing in the ear and disoriented but 9mm carbine muzzle blast is not as bad (I still recommend use of hearing protection with electronic mike to enhance your hearing - Make sure they are true stereo mikes for directional awareness).
And I am a proponent of pistol point shooting for home/defensive shooting where use of sighted shooting option may not be feasible (It's good to have options or Plan B, C, etc.) and always incorporate point shooting drills with carbines (support hand wrapped around barrel shroud and pointing with the thumb) along with pistol point shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245
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earplug
Member
Subsonic 300 Blackout with a suppressor. I'm fed up with all the freedom.
Mauser lover
Member
That would do it! As long as you could keep the barrel length/weight down, I'd go for it!
It wasn't one of the choices of the original post, but your carbine (maybe SBR?) would be just about ideal.
I can vouch for do not fire 357 mag indoors. Once was to much for me.
Before that, I always shot it with ear plugs before that and didn't realize what it's like.
I too would go with the 9mm and good defense ammo.
My number one choice now is two good dogs. But this isn't a dog forum
Zerodefect
member
556 or 300blk.
Ask your coroner. ''Pistol rounds and buckshot are like ice piks. A carbine is kinda like throwing a baseball THROUGH somebody.''
My ears are already toast. A few more indoor rounds without earpro ain't going to matter much.
Ask your coroner. ''Pistol rounds and buckshot are like ice piks. A carbine is kinda like throwing a baseball THROUGH somebody.''
My ears are already toast. A few more indoor rounds without earpro ain't going to matter much.
JR24
Member
Agree.
Frankly, if I'm using a weapon to defend my family from a deadly threat I want to stop the problem, NOW, and will worry about my hearing later.
Certainly would take a rifle round in the OPs scenario.
Now, I generally have a 9mm as my HD option because needing my other hand is a big potentiality in my HD plans (grabbing kids, so we can flee or bunker where the .223 carbine is) but if you're gonna go PCC and lose the advantage in maneuveriability then I'd much rather have a real rifle round.
Heck if hearing after is a huge concern, go shorter barrel and suppress it, even supersonic .223 with a can will help some.
But I would probably prefer .300 BLK. Found, outside, that 110 grain BLK doesn't bother my hearing without earpro, I've lost enough hearing it's not bad at all for hunting or whatever.
FL-NC
Member
The 9mm. Fighting inside of a house is a very violent short range affair in an enclosed space. The flash and blast penalty of 223 is something I would rather not suck up again, unless I have time to put on a set of peltor comm-tacs (not likely).
hank327
Member
I’d take a 5.56 x 45mm 14.5”or 16” barrel carbine with 55 grn M193 FMJ over ANY pistol caliber weapon regardless of being able to use HPs in the PCC all day, everyday. Sure it is loud but is immeasurably much more effective.
The 5.56 M16/ M4 has been used in CQB from Hue to Fallujah to Outpost Keating to good effect. I’m sure our Marines and soldiers were not wearing earplugs or earphones during those fights. I don’t remember reading that they were unable to fight because their rifles were too loud. Please don’t try to tell me they would’ve been better armed with a PCC!
If I know I’m going to have to fight, give a rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge to defend myself with.
The 5.56 M16/ M4 has been used in CQB from Hue to Fallujah to Outpost Keating to good effect. I’m sure our Marines and soldiers were not wearing earplugs or earphones during those fights. I don’t remember reading that they were unable to fight because their rifles were too loud. Please don’t try to tell me they would’ve been better armed with a PCC!
If I know I’m going to have to fight, give a rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge to defend myself with.
Garandimal
member
Hands down M193.
- Delivers near triple the energy/round.
- Dumps it into the threat in a satisfactory manner.
- Does it reliably out to 200 yards.
Nothing says HD will start or stay in the home.
That's why I'm fighting my way to that weapon in the first place.
GR
"Energy dump" is not how wounding occurs.
What?
If you can get to it, stay there.
Garandimal
member
It is the Only thing that causes wounding.
Where is it written that HD starts and stays in the home?
Don't walk around my house w/ a carbine over my shoulder.
But I carry a pistol or have one at arm's reach.
GR
Wounding is caused when the force per unit area imparted by a blade or projectile exceeds the strength of the material that is struck.
A person may employ deadly force in the event of an an unlawful, forcible entry into the home.
Once that has been done, deadly force may not lawfully be continued.
223 FMJ. The 223/5.56 FMJ has better terminal ballistics but there are other reasons as well.
Most 9mm ARs are blow back which has sharper felt recoil than a properly tuned 5.56. Properly tuned doesn't mean an AR tuned to give the softest recoil possible while barely functioning. Examples of properly tuned ARs are the Colt 6920, Colt M4A1 and Colt 6933. I cite these because I have first hand experience with them.
I have greater knowledge and experience with 5.56 ARs. If something goes wrong, I know where to start looking and how to fix it when I find it. 5.56 ARs are less finicky than the 9mm ARs.
I know how to set up a 5.56 AR to work with a suppressor. I have no experience with suppressed blow back firearms.
Overall, I'm more familiar with 5.56 than 9mm ARs and have greater confidence in it's function, reliability and durability.
Garandimal
member
Facts:
1. Energy that is not dumped - passes through, wasted, to impart itself on an object beyond.
The M193 dumps near Three times as much/round into the threat.
2. A reasonable belief that an imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm exists to yourself or others - generally defines the use of Deadly Force.
Where is it written that that will start and stay in the home?
GR
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Ys, that's what happens when a bullt\et penetrates. That doesn't change how wounding occurs
You mentioned home defense.
Yes, one may lawfully use deadly force to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, provided that the defender is judged to have met all of the requirements for self defense--innocence, imminence, proportionality, reasonableness, and where required, avoidance.
In an occupied residence, and in some places other structures, is unlawfully entered, avoidance will not be required, and imminence and reasonableness will have been demonstrated.
But if the invader gives up, turns to flee, or takes off, the continued use of deadly force will not be justified, and the defender may not lawfully pursue.
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