It looks like I have to drop down to 9mm

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labnoti said:
Let me quantify the recoil difference. A fully loaded 1911 weighs around 44 ounces and shoots a 230 grain bullet at 955 fps (your load). That produces 12.7 fps recoil velocity. With the 185 grain bullet at 800 fps, about 9 fps recoil velocity.

The Glock 19 weighs about 30 ounces with a full magazine (17 rounds). With this weight, a 124 grain bullet launched at 1100 fps will produce about 12.4 fps recoil velocity.

The 9x19mm cartridge is producing a lot less recoil energy: about 3.5 ft lbf versus 7 ft. lbf for the 230 grain 45 load. However, because the gun weighs so much less, you won't feel that much less or any less at all.

On the other hand, if simply holding the gun's weight is the problem and not the recoil, then a heavier gun won't help. You can easily determine this by holding the gun and doing dry fire practice and see if your shoulders are sore or not.
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I have a set of baby weights (2,3,5,8#) that I've used to keep what strength remains, and they help.
I've reloaded for years, and sold my Dillion XL650 when I realized I wasn't using it much; the numbers are very familiar.
I used to run 50 rounds through my Desert Eagle, and it made shooting a 1911 with defensive loads a non-event.
Thanks so very much to do the work you did to help without hyperbole.
 
labnoti said:
If you're looking for lower recoil, 9x19mm in a lightweight polymer gun isn't the best. 9mm is a high pressure cartridge and the Glock 19 is lightweight and compact with a short barrel. It's a popular choice for concealed carry because it's easy to carry. For a lower recoil, you want a steel gun with a longer barrel and a low pressure cartridge, in that order of priority. So a steel gun like a 1911 (in other than 45), Beretta, CZ or High Power would offer more mass and slow the recoil velocity. A longer barrel, even a Glock 17 or 34 instead of the 19 is going to put more of the mass forward. You can also use things like a tungsten guide rod or a weapons light mounted on the frame rail to add weight to the fore-end. You can also consider a revolver. Nothing says low recoil like a heavy, long-barreled revolver loaded with low-pressure .38 Special. Try a S&W 686, a new Colt Python, Ruger GP-100 or a Dan Wesson 715. 38 Special would be very easy on your shoulders, and 357 Magnum wouldn't give up anything to .45 ACP when it counts.
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Thanks so much for the comparisons and reasons for your suggestions!
 
labnoti said:
Let me quantify the recoil difference. A fully loaded 1911 weighs around 44 ounces and shoots a 230 grain bullet at 955 fps (your load). That produces 12.7 fps recoil velocity. With the 185 grain bullet at 800 fps, about 9 fps recoil velocity.

The Glock 19 weighs about 30 ounces with a full magazine (17 rounds). With this weight, a 124 grain bullet launched at 1100 fps will produce about 12.4 fps recoil velocity.

The 9x19mm cartridge is producing a lot less recoil energy: about 3.5 ft lbf versus 7 ft. lbf for the 230 grain 45 load. However, because the gun weighs so much less, you won't feel that much less or any less at all.

On the other hand, if simply holding the gun's weight is the problem and not the recoil, then a heavier gun won't help. You can easily determine this by holding the gun and doing dry fire practice and see if your shoulders are sore or not.
Click to expand...

I do dry fire with snap caps. This far back in the woods sees all kinds. I get a little frustrated, facing inescapable adjustments much earlier than planned. Thanks for your reply.
 
PO2Hammer said:
My trouble is in my hands and wrists, but the light framed USP 45 is far more comfortable for me than a steel 1911 shooting the same loads.

Just got back from the range shooting plated 185 SWC over 5 grains of W231, very soft shooting, no pain at all.
Click to expand...

After the last day at the range with my USPC edc I found a full thickness hairline crack in the slide at the right rear. Not even 2k rounds, nothing that chronoed above 960fps on the old Pact.
At least the G19X is a perfect fit in the assortment of holsters for the HK.
 
I love my CZ 9's
And I have a full size 9mm in stainless by Taurus.
When I'm hurting and can't carry a "real" 1911 in 45 the are my go to!
 
Not to divert the thread but I've seen several messages from guys who power lift. I have two good friends who did that in their youth. One was a state champion and the other bulked up immensely so that I didn't recognize him when I got out of service and saw him at a party. Both now have quite a few years on them and they'll tell you that their bodies are a wreck. A word to the wise!
 
Milt1 said:
Not to divert the thread but I've seen several messages from guys who power lift. I have two good friends who did that in their youth. One was a state champion and the other bulked up immensely so that I didn't recognize him when I got out of service and saw him at a party. Both now have quite a few years on them and they'll tell you that their bodies are a wreck. A word to the wise!
Click to expand...
I'm in my early 60's and feel two decades older. Most things "I've been there and got the tee shirt." It's expensive when both shoulders and both hip joints are damaged from repetitive impacts. Five years in the Arctic Ocean. I can tell when the weather is changing.....
 
I agree with @GunnyUSMC regarding the Glock 45. It has a G19 length slide with a G17 longer frame. I also had a 19X but gave it to my son-in-law. He stopped drooling a short time later. ;)
I also have arthritis in my right wrist, no cartilage in my left shoulder and an arthritic right shoulder and a list of other issues that don’t matter here.
I find the Glock 19 snappy but not the Glock models with the longer G17 frame.
I also tried metal framed 9mm pistols, the CZ 75 and the Hi-Power. They don’t add that much weight to mitigate the recoil. I feel the grip doesn’t fit me right and the controls on the CZ are too far up and the Hi-Power hammer bites. It’s too bad really. They were both grail guns for me until I actually shot them.
I do not recommend lighter single stacks as they will be snappy as well. I did shoot a 9mm Browning 1911. It was okay but I no longer care to carry a 1911 platform.
I would recommend finding a range and spending $50 renting guns to see what works for you. My recommendations probably won’t work for you as I have large hands and some guns just feel weird to me. I find that guns that other guys like that also have large hands often do not do it for me.

Good luck and I hope you find a pistol you can use.
 
Buzznrose said:
You have chronic joint pain....this really helps me:

1. Find a GOOD trainer who understands recovery exercises.

2. Reduce processed foods, meat and dairy from your diet and increase minimally processed plant foods

3. Suggest trying a quality CBD product and taking twice per day. Make sure whatever you get is
A. made in USA from organic US grown hemp and
B. independently tested.
My source is www.lazarusnaturals.com I prefer the THC free stuff. This stuff has been a blessing to my back, neck, and shoulders: https://www.lazarusnaturals.com/shop/tinctures/blood-orange-high-potency-tincture

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the CBD info! I went to their site and checked it out. 60% discount for disabled vets is pretty dang good.
 
Trey Veston said:
Thanks for the CBD info! I went to their site and checked it out. 60% discount for disabled vets is pretty dang good.
Click to expand...
You bet. And as TX10MM said, they recently dropped their base prices.

I use the tinctures daily and the balm as needed. Dog gets his daily as well.
 
Last edited:
Pat Riot said:
I agree with @GunnyUSMC regarding the Glock 45. It has a G19 length slide with a G17 longer frame. I also had a 19X but gave it to my son-in-law. He stopped drooling a short time later. ;)
I also have arthritis in my right wrist, no cartilage in my left shoulder and an arthritic right shoulder and a list of other issues that don’t matter here.
I find the Glock 19 snappy but not the Glock models with the longer G17 frame.
I also tried metal framed 9mm pistols, the CZ 75 and the Hi-Power. They don’t add that much weight to mitigate the recoil. I feel the grip doesn’t fit me right and the controls on the CZ are too far up and the Hi-Power hammer bites. It’s too bad really. They were both grail guns for me until I actually shot them.
I do not recommend lighter single stacks as they will be snappy as well. I did shoot a 9mm Browning 1911. It was okay but I no longer care to carry a 1911 platform.
I would recommend finding a range and spending $50 renting guns to see what works for you. My recommendations probably won’t work for you as I have large hands and some guns just feel weird to me. I find that guns that other guys like that also have large hands often do not do it for me.

Good luck and I hope you find a pistol you can use.
Click to expand...
Thank you for first hand comparison., it's a great reference on ergonomics that changes over time.
 
Milt1 said:
Not to divert the thread but I've seen several messages from guys who power lift. I have two good friends who did that in their youth. One was a state champion and the other bulked up immensely so that I didn't recognize him when I got out of service and saw him at a party. Both now have quite a few years on them and they'll tell you that their bodies are a wreck. A word to the wise!
Click to expand...

Excuse my going off topic but I felt I needed to reply. I entered my first power meet in 1979 and my most recent last year, so I've been lifting 3 days a week for 40+ years. My only real physical problem is with my right shoulder and I think that's because I should have had it surgically repaired after an injury 30 years ago and didn't, opting instead to take some time off and let it heal on it's own.

I'm 69 years old now and think I'm in better shape than most guys my age. I don't take any medications and still hit the gym three times a week for squats, benches and deadlifts. I think my excellent health is largely due to my exercise schedule over all those years. I often say that I'm afraid to stop lifting now as my body would fall apart in short order. Obviously I can't lift near the amount of weight I once did, but my knees and back are still in good shape, something a lot of guys my age can't say.

We now rejoin our regularly scheduled program.
 
Glocks with full-length (G17-length) grip frames are my orthopedic auto-pistols, for now. .40 S&W, fired from a SIG P229, became too much in 2011, just before I reached 50, but I had to endure it, enough to qual annually, until 2015, when my chief allowed 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge for patrol officers. I switched to the G17, for the lower bore axis, and the flexing polymer frame, at the same time I switched to 9mm. I added a couple of G19 pistols, for a bit more concealability.

My G19 pistols became a problem by October 2017, but my G17 pistols remained OK. I am not a doctor, but am married to one, though I had seriously self-studied kinesiology in the past, so arrived at the probable reason, on my own. Handguns with grips/grip-frames that do not reach the “heel bone” of my hand are less-stable, which sets all kinds of bad things into motion, from the base joint of my right thumb, onward and upward. A G19 does not reach far enough. My G17 and G19x pistols do reach far enough. My SP101 revolvers do, too. These are my current base-lines, at least with duty/service-level cartridges.

I am still vetting my G19x, but it seems OK, too.

I can still shoot full-sized, all-steel 1911 pistols, too, in moderate quantity. The bore axis is quite low, the steel absorbs the weight, and, .45 ACP is a low-pressure, relatively slower-to-accelerate cartridge.
 
The HK VP9 is a pretty nice 9mm light weight gun. Holds like 16-18 rounds depending on the generation.

Glock 19 would do just fine though also. Lots of good choices.
 
mmb617 said:
Excuse my going off topic but I felt I needed to reply. I entered my first power meet in 1979 and my most recent last year, so I've been lifting 3 days a week for 40+ years. My only real physical problem is with my right shoulder and I think that's because I should have had it surgically repaired after an injury 30 years ago and didn't, opting instead to take some time off and let it heal on it's own.

I'm 69 years old now and think I'm in better shape than most guys my age. I don't take any medications and still hit the gym three times a week for squats, benches and deadlifts. I think my excellent health is largely due to my exercise schedule over all those years. I often say that I'm afraid to stop lifting now as my body would fall apart in short order. Obviously I can't lift near the amount of weight I once did, but my knees and back are still in good shape, something a lot of guys my age can't say.

We now rejoin our regularly scheduled program.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your post. You've a lot to be thankful for! I've had the pleasure of meeting someone who has been a powerlifter, his father, too.
 
9mm is a good enough cartridge and brings less recoil than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

The more weight in the pistol, the less recoil. I really like the CZ-75 family; I don't like plastic guns and striker-fired guns -- but that's all personal preference. Other people's preferences aren't "wrong" and the most important thing is to find what works for you.

The CZ-75 compacts (CZ-75D, CZ-75D PCR, CZ-75 P-01, etc.) make good carry guns. They are all metal frames -- most of them have aluminum frames and come in around 28 ounces, but there is an all-steel version of the P-01 which happens to be available on the market right now and it weighs a bit more. Excellent pistols, reasonable cost, reliable, low bore axis, DA/SA, with or without decockers, etc.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
If you’re thinking about a 19X, I suggest that you also look at the Glock model 45. It’s pretty much the same, but there are a few differences.
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Since you also have a P320, a member on another forum commented about his wife, who is a high volume competition shooter, using a G34 for many years, recently was experiencing tendinitis issues in her shoulders and elbows. She reluctantly switched to the P320 (whatever model, I don't know), and seems to have had reduction in pain finding the P320 a softer shooting gun than the G34.
 
The ergonomics of the Ruger SR9 make it a soft shooting 9mm. Even the SR45 recoil was easier to endure than my all steel 1911s.
However, with both my 75 year old shoulders having arthritis, bone spurs, and partial rotator cuff tears, I decided to gift the .45 pistols to my sons and just stick with the SR9 for my “big bore” HD pistol.

8F3CDBEA-E716-4389-8523-71D820FAE809.jpeg
 
Is there a caliber that has slow-ish burning powder, but a bit more power than a 9mm?

I put Unique powder in my .45 Colt rounds and the kick is strong, but soft - like wearing 16 oz punching gloves. It’s comfortable, but I still get an enjoyable feel of the recoil.

If you got a 9mm with +P fast burning powder, the fast/sharp impulse may hurt your shoulders too much.

But I don’t actually know what 9mm feels like, so maybe I’m just showing my low level of knowledge.
 
Random thought popped in my head. The impulse-force theorem tells us that increasing the distance travelled during an impact will effectively reduce the force experienced during the impact (this is the basic principle of crumple zones in cars).

So a gun with a higher barrel and greater muzzle flip may be better for your shoulders, than a lower barrel that sends the impulse energy straight into your arms & shoulders. More muzzle flip = greater distance traveled during impulse.

Of course, this isn’t ideal for follow-up shots. It also may be worse on your wrists, because muzzle flip is a bending/torsional loading whereas zero flip is a compression loading.
 
mmb617 said:
Excuse my going off topic but I felt I needed to reply. I entered my first power meet in 1979 and my most recent last year, so I've been lifting 3 days a week for 40+ years. My only real physical problem is with my right shoulder and I think that's because I should have had it surgically repaired after an injury 30 years ago and didn't, opting instead to take some time off and let it heal on it's own.

I'm 69 years old now and think I'm in better shape than most guys my age. I don't take any medications and still hit the gym three times a week for squats, benches and deadlifts. I think my excellent health is largely due to my exercise schedule over all those years. I often say that I'm afraid to stop lifting now as my body would fall apart in short order. Obviously I can't lift near the amount of weight I once did, but my knees and back are still in good shape, something a lot of guys my age can't say.

We now rejoin our regularly scheduled program.
Click to expand...
My Dad was never a power lifter but he exercised regularly with heavy weights. He started using more reps and a little less weight in his sixties and more so again in his seventies. He started doing fewer reps In his eighties and now lifts light weights with a moderate level of reps. He exercises each muscle group once a week.

He is 96.

Doesn’t use a cane, let alone a walker. Started doing a stretching regime in his 50’s before getting out of bed, he continues to this day.

6’ 1”, 185 pounds. Just like he was at the end of WW II, when he left the Navy.
 
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