Arizona ammo supplier to Las Vegas massacre gunman gets prison time: reports

TJ AK-74 said:

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As far as "criminal" act of making ammo as a hobby and then selling it, technically, you shouldn't need an FFL for such activities, .

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Really?
"Technically" theres Federal law which requires a Federal Firearms License to manufacture ammunition for sale.
"Technically" he knew about that requirement and chose to violate the law.

so I don't understand why you're so upset about it.

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How would you feel about Douglas Haig if one of his rounds exploded and killed or blinded someone who purchased his ammunition?
Scumbags are scumbags, he is one.

His hobby may have grown over 25yrs to become more of a business-type situation where he may have crossed some threshold where it needed to be licensed, but there is not enough info to determine if that is the case or not.

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"some threshold"? Are you kidding? The minute he sold his first round he violated federal law.....he KNEW THAT. Do five minutes reading on Haig and you'll learn quite a bit about his "threshold".

I find it sad that a gun owner is glad that another gun owner got prosecuted over a possible violation of a likely un-Constitutional law

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I'm the first one to say that the Second Amendment means what it says, but sadly the Constitution doesn't give me any authority. The Constitution DOES give that authority to the Supreme Court and so far.............they disagree.
"Possible violation"?.............Douglas Haig pleaded GUILTY, so I'm sure he knew it was a bit more than a "possible violation".

Seems to me that Paddock is irrelevant in this case. We don't even know if the ammo in question was used in the shooting. And even if it was, would it make anyone feel better (or less dead, for that matter) if the ammunition had come from a licensed dealer?

I used to get my hair cut from an unlicensed barber. She did a fine job and charged a price we both were happy with. This went on for years, until she got found out, cited, and hauled into court, where she was threatened with ruinous fines and even jail time.

Yes, the law is the law and is broken at one's own risk. Some laws are better than others, though.

1942bull said:

While I am glad to read that the man is ‘doing time’ for his criminal act I think it is too lenient because is acts was contributory to the mass casualties of the Las Vegas shooting. He was up to no good, and he helped make something no good happen.

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Sorry, but if the Las Vegas shooter had been wearing Nikes, would Nike have been contributory? How about the company that made the bipod?
One person is to blame and thats the shooter himself.

Speedo66 said:

Depends on the number of guns sold. If at some point you pass the arbitrary number that BATF says makes you a dealer, it becomes illegal unless you're licensed.

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There is no "arbitrary number" and ATF has stated that many times. It can be as few as ONE GUN.
"Do I Need A License To Buy And Sell Firearms?": https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

.38 Special said:

Seems to me that Paddock is irrelevant in this case. We don't even know if the ammo in question was used in the shooting.

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We don't? I do. Haigs fingerprints were on cartridge cases recovered at the crime scene.

And even if it was, would it make anyone feel better (or less dead, for that matter) if the ammunition had come from a licensed dealer?

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Not me.

Howland937 said:

Except private firearms sales where it is legal isn't illegal. Selling surplus factory ammo isn't either. Making ammo and selling it is illegal..Unless authorized (licensed) to do so.

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Except?

What are you disagreeing with what I said?

dogtown tom said:

We don't? I do. Haigs fingerprints were on cartridge cases recovered at the crime scene

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Based on what he actually plead guilty to, it doesn't appear that he was held responsible for how the ammo was used. We can speculate that the attention it brought made his crime more vile and easier to prosecute. Can speculate that if his ammo didn't have an attachment to the mass shooting, he would have been an anonymous criminal charged only because the govt didn't get their slice of his pie. I'm not a fan of criminals and try my best to not be associated with them (family...sometimes ya have no choice). In this guy's case, there weren't many options for assigning blame, so he got some.

danez71 said:

Except?

What are you disagreeing with what I said?

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It appeared you were lumping people who regularly sell firearms in private transactions into the same category as this guy who was selling his own handloaded ammo. I was just saying that in a large part of the country, there is nothing illegal about selling firearms privately and no limit (in Ohio anyway) to how many I can buy or sell. If I had a collection of 500 guns and decided to start selling, there's nothing to prohibit me from doing so. Yard sale, flea market, gun show, etc...
There's nowhere in the US of A that's legal for this guy to roll his own ammo and sell it.
Like was mentioned, if you buy with the intent to resell even one, it's considered illegal. There's no number attached, and proving intent would be at issue.

Howland937 said:

It appeared you were lumping people who regularly sell firearms in private transactions into the same category as this guy who was selling his own handloaded ammo. I was just saying that in a large part of the country, there is nothing illegal about selling firearms privately and no limit (in Ohio anyway) to how many I can buy or sell. If I had a collection of 500 guns and decided to start selling, there's nothing to prohibit me from doing so. Yard sale, flea market, gun show, etc...
There's nowhere in the US of A that's legal for this guy to roll his own ammo and sell it.
Like was mentioned, if you buy with the intent to resell even one, it's considered illegal. There's no number attached, and proving intent would be at issue.

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I didn't say there was a # attached.


There have been at least 1 example here that the poster basically said/thought that he's fine buying guns at really good prices that he doesn't really want and reselling them for profit. He basically said it's his hobby and not a business.

The reality is that its not within his athority to decide that.

There's been some good threads in the legal section about this.

dogtown tom said:

Sorry, but if the Las Vegas shooter had been wearing Nikes, would Nike have been contributory? How about the company that made the bipod?
One person is to blame and thats the shooter himself.

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I wrote: “While I am glad to read that the man is ‘doing time’ for his criminal act I think it is too lenient because is acts was contributory to the mass casualties of the Las Vegas shooting. He was up to no good, and he helped make something no good happen.” Perhaps poorly stated by me due to lack of detail. Because his criminal act abetted another criminal act he deserves a stiffer sentence, just as if he had illegally sold the shooter a gun.

I do not believe that any legitimate sale of any product used in a crime should become a liability for the seller. I do think that the convicted person’s sale of criminally produced ammo was an illegitimate sale, and I regard that different than a legitimate sale. I would say the same thing if a person makes a straw purchase of a gun that is used in a crime. Just my 2 cents.

Howland937 said:

Based on what he actually plead guilty to, it doesn't appear that he was held responsible for how the ammo was used. We can speculate that the attention it brought made his crime more vile and easier to prosecute.

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Absolutely true.
The more high profile, the greater likelihood that the USAO will pursue the case.
The more "winnable" the case, the greater liklihood the USAO will pursue the case.
A slam dunk that serves as a warning to every reloader who sells his reloads at gun shows, yep.

Can speculate that if his ammo didn't have an attachment to the mass shooting, he would have been an anonymous criminal charged only because the govt didn't get their slice of his pie.

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And quite likely the gov would have told him, "get your 06FFL, collect and remit sales tax and follow your local laws". That or a cease and desist letter. But add in armor piercing bullets and you really get on the radar.

The massive "slice of his pie" the feds would have received? A WHOPPING $30 every three years as an 06FFL Manufacturer of Ammunition for Firearms Other Than Ammunition for Destructive Devices or Armor Piercing Ammunition
But being this idiot decided to manufacture armor piercing ammunition, he would have needed a 10FFL Manufacturer of Destructive Devices, Ammunition for Destructive Devices, or Armor Piercing Ammunition instead..........$3000 for three years. That may explain why he didn't get that FFL.

I'm not a fan of criminals and try my best to not be associated with them (family...sometimes ya have no choice). In this guy's case, there weren't many options for assigning blame, so he got some.

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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Speedo66 said:

So, all this hate for a guy selling ammo. This coming from many here who normally say "it's not the gun, it's the guy holding it."

I

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I can't speak for anyone but me. I don't have any "hate" for this poor guy. I also find it hard to fell sorry for him. He did something really dumb. From what I read he seems to be a very smart (educated) person. Did he know he was breaking some law? I do not know. My only point is I hope others who either do this, or consider doing this, selling ammo, read about this, then make the smart choice to not do what he did. Never a good idea to poke the bear so to speak when it comes to the firearm laws. From what I read he got away with this for a long time. I am sure many get away with a lot of breaking of laws or rules like this for a long time. People who are adults need to stay informed and make a choice to stay on the right side of the law. Make adult choices, pay adult prices if something happens. Personal responsibility seems to have long become a dirty word. <shrug>

This situation reminds me a lot of a celebrity OD'ing on drugs. Tons of drugs are illegally sold and while it's actively prosecuted it doesn't always get a lot of attention. But when someone famous and beloved dies heaven help whoever sold him or her the dime bag. And of course, in both cases- the drug dealer and this guy- the actions were illegal. Probably it would have flown under the radar unnoticed if not for the high profile nature of the crime the stuff was linked to.

dogtown tom said:

There is no "arbitrary number" and ATF has stated that many times. It can be as few as ONE GUN.
"Do I Need A License To Buy And Sell Firearms?": https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

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Seems fairly straight forward to me... The only issue I can think of is someone who may have inherited a rather large gun collection and doesn't want them, not that many, doesn't have the space, or etc sells them for a "profit" merely because he gotten them for "free"... Is he considered a illegal dealer or not?

whm1974 said:

Seems fairly straight forward to me... The only issue I can think of is someone who may have inherited a rather large gun collection and doesn't want them, not that many, doesn't have the space, or etc sells them for a "profit" merely because he gotten them for "free"... Is he considered a illegal dealer or not?

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Simple answer? If he sells a gun to some kook who does a mass shooting, he can count on all kinds of legal problems. So "inherited a rather large gun collection and doesn't want them", he has to think, do I want to sell these in such a way that I leave myself open to risk or do I want to be safer and make less? One option many have if they find themselves in this situation is sell at a shop on percentage. Many shops will take the guns and sell for them. Shop takes a cut of the sale but, shop also transfers the guns to a new owner. Some one who comes into a few guns may not know much anything about gun law but, unless they live in a cave they have to see some news about how guns are often treated. So choose to sell to strangers, they choose to take risk.

whm1974 said:

Seems fairly straight forward to me...

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Really? So how many guns is it?

The only issue I can think of is someone who may have inherited a rather large gun collection and doesn't want them, not that many, doesn't have the space, or etc sells them for a "profit" merely because he gotten them for "free"... Is he considered a illegal dealer or not?

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If you had read that link I posted above, ATF gives you the answer.
Pg 2 "What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in firearms?"

If you anger the Federal Government in some way it WILL make an example out of you. The random agents can have a bunch of political pressure placed on them and they will then flow down to some random scapegoat. The prosecutor is willing to spend a virtual unlimited amount of resources to make something stick, and I personally don't know that many people who can match that level of resource expenditure and survive.

I read a story a number of years ago where an employee of a major manufacturer used a title 2 rifle to defend himself and was charged with murder 2 by an overzealous anti-gun prosecutor. This person's employer footed the defense bill as the shooting took place on t bu air property, but the employee had to repay the entire amount.

It sucks that the gentleman broke the law, but he might not have known he needed a license. he also had the poor luck to be associated with a major political case that drew the attention of the ATF and Federal Prosecutors. Even if he had an FFL that might not have been enough to save him. The government will find SOMETHING to charge you with and will make you go broke defending yourself.

ANY TIME a mass murder, terrorist act or another high-profile gun/related incident happens you can guarantee that EVERY possible lead will be followed and ANY possible connection to those who perpetrated the act will be explored.

In cases where the shooter dies, you better believe SOMEONE is going to be paraded before the media and then a Judge if there is an iota of culpability or a legal violation that can be proven. We’re humans, we got to exact our pound of flesh from someone.

I was there in San Bernardino on Dec 2 when the two jihadi shot up the Inland Regional Center. I was there at the CP, I was there when the Riverside FBI office AIC told me that the feds were going to take it over, I watched in person the interviews conducted at SBPD when the mom and sister were questioned by the FBI.

I am also friends with the couple who owned the gun store where the friend bought the guns. Jerry and Anne sold the guns to the friend, who lied about buying the guns to them and on the form. His were straw purchases for the jihadis, but there was no way Jerry or Anne ever would’ve known that.

You better believe every single gun sale that Jerry and Anne had made since buying the store from Dave, the former owner, was of interest. Each and every one was scrutinized to see if there was ANY possible gun-sale violation they could be hung on. They were spotless, but neither ever recovered from the stress of the situation and they sold the store to a new guy sometime afterwards.

They got the friend for the straw purchases and sent him to the slammer. The male jihadis relatives were zapped for immigration violations. These were the only live people who committed crimes (even if unrelated) that they could make somehow pay for these senseless acts.

(I also had several friends who were at Route 91 in Las Vegas, luckily they were all uninjured.)

In this case the ammo maker had committed violations of law, there was a direct nexus to the suspect and to the act itself, therefore he’s going to be the pound of flesh. No one else ever will be.

Stay legal, and stay safe. I

Remembering from a decades old cartoon...
Mr Farmer is on the stand, startled look on his face. Judge is seated. Lawyer is a-grillin him ''Aha! So you admit it! you grew the corn that went to the distillery that make the whiskey, that my client drank, which causing the accident!''

Riomouse911 said:

ANY TIME a mass murder, terrorist act or another high-profile gun/related incident happens you can guarantee that EVERY possible lead will be followed and ANY possible connection to those who perpetrated the act will be explored.

In cases where the shooter dies, you better believe SOMEONE is going to be paraded before the media and then a Judge if there is an iota of culpability or a legal violation that can be proven. We’re humans, we got to exact our pound of flesh from someone.

I was there in San Bernardino on Dec 2 when the two jihadi shot up the Inland Regional Center. I was there at the CP, I was there when the Riverside FBI office AIC told me that the feds were going to take it over, I watched in person the interviews conducted at SBPD when the mom and sister were questioned by the FBI.

I am also friends with the couple who owned the gun store where the friend bought the guns. Jerry and Anne sold the guns to the friend, who lied about buying the guns to them and on the form. His were straw purchases for the jihadis, but there was no way Jerry or Anne ever would’ve known that.

You better believe every single gun sale that Jerry and Anne had made since buying the store from Dave, the former owner, was of interest. Each and every one was scrutinized to see if there was ANY possible gun-sale violation they could be hung on. They were spotless, but neither ever recovered from the stress of the situation and they sold the store to a new guy sometime afterwards.

They got the friend for the straw purchases and sent him to the slammer. The male jihadis relatives were zapped for immigration violations. These were the only live people who committed crimes (even if unrelated) that they could make somehow pay for these senseless acts.

(I also had several friends who were at Route 91 in Las Vegas, luckily they were all uninjured.)

In this case the ammo maker had committed violations of law, there was a direct nexus to the suspect and to the act itself, therefore he’s going to be the pound of flesh. No one else ever will be.

Stay legal, and stay safe. I

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I know for a 1000% fact that no one interviewed the sisters coworkers and from that I can safely assume they didnt look into her ties to the financial related company she worked for.

Read every post on this thread - some I agreed with - others not so much. I don't have a bit of knowledge about this case other than what I've read here (and all the stuff on mass mediia at the time the tragedy occurred... ).

A few thoughts though... First, just because you're well educated doesn't make you "smart" or say anything at all about your character or judgment (and if you doubt me consider the president before our current one...). Second, as any cop or former cop can tell you - don't ever get famous (or infamous) or allow yourself to be caught up in some very bad incident.... Most can break the law and have a pretty good chance of not being caught (at least the first time...). If they're caught they can usually count on a very light penalty if at all that first time - as long as no one knows their name and the public isn't all fired up about whatever happened. If you're involved in any great controversy or huge, well publicized crime - look out since you can pretty much expect the hammer of God coming your way...

Unfortunately all that I've just said goes double for anyone that's active or former (even long retired) law enforcement. With current events that doesn't need a bit of explanation... Wish it weren't so.

Yeah, Mr. Haig would have probably gotten a slap on the wrist had his home made ammunition not been found at the scene of a massacre. Mr. Haig may have gotten a slap on the wrist had he not lied to the BATFE. A federal grand jury indicted Haig for manufacturing ammunition without a license after he lied to the BATFE.

https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/arizona...ness-manufacturing-ammunition-without-license

i cry no tears for Mr. Haig.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/pulse-nightclub-shooters-wife-found-guilty/story?id=54122947

https://www.tampabay.com/news/publi...-hank-earl-carrs-girlfriend-set-free/2299589/

Similar events different outcomes, I wonder why?

I think in that situation, even if he had an FFL to manufacture, once he was associated with it through his fingerprints, the full power of the gov't would have come down on him.

"You underpaid your company taxes by $10 so we're going to ask for a lengthy prison term for your involvement in this senseless killing".

Again, once the media is involved, all normal thought process goes out, and law enforcement and prosecution just try and make sure they've got someone they can point a finger at, and the media can focus on, besides themselves.