Arizona ammo supplier to Las Vegas massacre gunman gets prison time: reports

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Speedo66 said:
I think in that situation, even if he had an FFL to manufacture, once he was associated with it through his fingerprints, the full power of the gov't would have come down on him.
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For what? The feds never charged the manufacturers of the rifles, the bump stocks or the 5.56mm ammunition. Why would they charge another person who manufactured ammunition legally?

Had Mr. Haig simply fessed up to manufacturing the ammunition; the BATFE would have slapped his wrist and his career would have remained intact. Because of those lies Haig is a convicted felon with no gun rights. Lying to federal agents often have serious consequences.

Yeah, it's very fashionable on gun boards to simply blame the media.
 
I agree he brought some of it down upon himself by lying, it's also a lot easier to go after an individual than say Colt or Winchester who can bring their own boatload of attorneys to play.
 
I for one learned today that you need a license to sell ammunition. I've been on various firearm forums for years and have never run across that tidbit of information.

After some brief research it seems that this is something the ATF largely turns a blind eye to, until your ammunition hurts someone or is used in a crime. This guy was either taking that gamble, or was ignorant which is entirely possible. It seems he had a legit business and a website, and for all we know he was paying taxes on his earnings: https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...ion_llc.5ae7f8ebe366165c66829673a3aae31e.html

I'd be curious to know if the ammo in question was truly armor piercing. The ATF fee to manufacture non armor piercing ammo is $30/3 years. But the fee for armor piercing is $3000/3 years. I wouldn't put it above a government agency to claim that green tip is armor piercing just to try to slap this guy with a larger crime.
 
I guess since my policy is to never let anyone shoot my reloads, unless from my gun, makes the notion of selling my loads totally unthinkable. A commercial operation, if argued as such by a prosecutor would certainly seem a legit thread to pull to dissuade this type of thing.

Though there are a lot of ways to procure ammo, and there should be. The right to keep and bear arms is sort of moot if the right to procure ammo isn't a thing. Unless you're really into pistol whipping...……..
 
bassjam said:
I for one learned today that you need a license to sell ammunition. I've been on various firearm forums for years and have never run across that tidbit of information.

After some brief research it seems that this is something the ATF largely turns a blind eye to, until your ammunition hurts someone or is used in a crime. This guy was either taking that gamble, or was ignorant which is entirely possible. It seems he had a legit business and a website, and for all we know he was paying taxes on his earnings: https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...ion_llc.5ae7f8ebe366165c66829673a3aae31e.html

I'd be curious to know if the ammo in question was truly armor piercing. The ATF fee to manufacture non armor piercing ammo is $30/3 years. But the fee for armor piercing is $3000/3 years. I wouldn't put it above a government agency to claim that green tip is armor piercing just to try to slap this guy with a larger crime.
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Wouldn't surprise me either. However I wouldn't sell my handloads/reloads or even give them to other people at all. If I wanted to manufacture ammo, I would pay the fee which is cheap, and start a firm for that purpose.
 
whm1974 said:
Wouldn't surprise me either. However I wouldn't sell my handloads/reloads or even give them to other people at all. If I wanted to manufacture ammo, I would pay the fee which is cheap, and start a firm for that purpose.
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He did have a firm, and based on the sales figure in the link I posted of $240k, even the $3,000 fee wouldn't have been cost prohibitive to him which leads me to believe this was a case of ignorance. Obviously that's not an excusable defense, but there's so many laws in this country it's impossible to know them all.
 
bassjam said:
He did have a firm, and based on the sales figure in the link I posted of $240k, even the $3,000 fee wouldn't have been cost prohibitive to him which leads me to believe this was a case of ignorance. Obviously that's not an excusable defense, but there's so many laws in this country it's impossible to know them all.
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While that is true, I would still contact the ATF since they are the ones that deal with and enforce all Federal Firearm laws.
 
bassjam said:
He did have a firm, and based on the sales figure in the link I posted of $240k, even the $3,000 fee wouldn't have been cost prohibitive to him which leads me to believe this was a case of ignorance.
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From that which I've read, I suspect that this was a deliberate attempt to be defiant and not a work of ignorance.
 
whm1974 said:
Seems fairly straight forward to me... The only issue I can think of is someone who may have inherited a rather large gun collection and doesn't want them, not that many, doesn't have the space, or etc sells them for a "profit" merely because he gotten them for "free"... Is he considered a illegal dealer or not?
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The ATF guidance specifically lists “disposing of a collection” (or words to the effect) as an exemption from needing a license IIRC.

Edit: here is is- -
Bob inherits a collection of firearms from his grandfather. He would rather have cash than the firearms, so he posts them all online for sale. He makes no purchases, but over the course of the next year he sells all of the firearms he inherited in a series of different transactions. Bob does not need a license because he is liquidating a personal collection.
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Quoted from this document: https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
 
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Speedo66 said:
First time non violent offenders normally don't get felony time, especially on just a license violation.
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The difference here may be how long he was at the scale of manufacturing and his intent to scale up through automation. Cranking out specialty rounds with a progressive hand crank is very different from automation to increase volume of manufacture. The jury apparently thought he'd crossed into manufacturing long enough and did enough volume that he was not engaged in a hobby any longer. It is a question of scale of endeavor.
 
He was not convicted for selling ammunition used in the Las Vegas shooting.
He [took a guilty plea] for being in the business of manufacturing ammunition for resale as a source of income without the business licensing.
The connection to Paddock is coincidental.

I handload for my own use and know that handloading for resale to others is manufacturing and selling without the manufacturer or dealer licensing.

"Douglas Haig (57) aerospace space engineer" should have been smart enough to not manufacture and sell commercial amounts of ammo without the proper licenses.

I am not rocket scientist and I know better.

edited in response to valid point made by alsaqr

Lawyers dot com replies "A plea of guilty results in a conviction just as if a person was found guilty after a trial."

However, I agree that "copping a plea" is not the same as "convicted by jury" who have heard the presentations of the prosecution and defense, seen the evidence presented at trial, and followed the law as instructed by the judge.
 
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TJ AK-74 said: As far as "criminal" act of making ammo as a hobby and then selling it, technically, you shouldn't need an FFL for such activities ...

If I were making six figures of income making and selling ammo as Haig did, I think that would not be my hobby but my business source of income, and I think I would need a federal firearms license and state licensing as well, and a quality control lab, and business insurance and a lawyer on retainer in case Bubba shot my .300 BLK in his .223 AR.
 
First, I do not condone breaking the law nor do I believe ignorance of the law or how dumb a law may be exonerates someone for a criminal action.

My impression is that most of us on THR are enthusiastic gun owners and shooting and/or collecting guns are one of our top hobbies so we probably have a better understanding of gun laws and what we can/cannot/should/should not do.

My point is that for someone who casually dabbles in the gun world, it is unreasonable to expect him/her to know all the federal gun laws, licensing requirements, etc let alone all the gun laws for that his/her state and locality. This is especially true since many of the laws make no sense... for instance, I’m certain that a lot of people have no idea what makes a firearm a SBR and that simply having a rifle with a barrel of less that 16” requires a tax stamp.

I am confident that there are people making and selling ammo right now without licenses and that they have no idea that what they are doing may be illegal. I can make and sell other things... just look at Etsy. Ammo isn’t even serialized and in many jurisdictions, you do not need a background check so the thought of “I probably need a license to make and sell ammo” may not occur to some people.

That said, I do not know the nuances of the case in question. If the facts were that he made and sold ammo over the past 25 years without a license, I suspect at some point someone would have asked if he had his license or that he would have stumbled upon something whether it be researching loads or otherwise that would have alerted him to the need to obtain a license. Perhaps he knew 25 years ago that he needed a license and consciously decided to make and sell ammo without it. Perhaps he legitimately did not know and thought that what he was doing was perfectly legal.

All that said, I do not like the government’s regulation of just about everything gun-related and otherwise. I think people should be free to make, sell, and buy as they choose without the need of licenses, etc. More risk may be incurred (“perhaps these reloads that I bought from a guy rolling them out in his basement will blow up in my face”), but I’d rather be free and able to make decisions for myself.
 
Aim1 said:
So, just enough time to become a felon? Was this this guy's only job?


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https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-...egas-massacre-gunman-gets-prison-time-reports
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Man does this thread speak volumes to me. My father in law (who doesn’t really have a clue about guns and doesn’t own one) had wanted to buy an AR-15 chambered in .450 Bushmaster last year. He is retired and really doesn’t have all that much money to spend on a niche caliber like that. I told him if he could afford the gun he couldn’t afford the “food” to feed it. He relented and instead I bought him a Ruger AR-556 which his wife wouldn’t allow him to have anyway. Very, very sad to say the least. It sits under my bed as I write this. Anyhow, he has a neighbor who was trying to talk him into the .450 Bushmaster as the neighbor had one also. Fast forward to last week; my father in law says he was talking to the neighbor who found out I reload. He wanted to me to reload for him for a price as the ammo was “to expensive.” I had to inform my father in law that without a federal manufacturers license this is illegal. So the neighbor either needs to buy his own reloading equipment or sell that AR platform. On another note, I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. As of last week we had early released approximately 7,000 felons for early release. One of the stipulations is that you must have served 50% of your original sentencing and not be a violent offender. Often times you don’t get bond while awaiting g prosecution by the federal government. We house those awaiting trial at a separate institution known as a FDC (Federal Detention Center; aka jail) or farm out the jail time to local county jails. He may have been given time served awaiting trial and that could put him over the 50% minimum requirement for early release. I don’t know if the crime is considered a violent offense. I will say this, federal prosecutors and judges are very sensitive to the media. I can’t see this guy getting home confinement or Half Way House for such a highly publicized case. The optics just look to bad in my opinion. We will see.
 
Even though Haig’s website promoted his ability to “fabricate” and “manufacture” military style “mil spec” ammunition, including AP ammunition, API, and HEAPI ammunition, Haig told a witness to lie to the FBI and ATF agents about whether he sold the ammunition that he manufactured. Because Haig did not possess a federal firearms license, he was not authorized to manufacture ammunition.
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https://www.justice.gov/usao-nv/pr/...ally-manufacturing-ammunition-without-license
 
bassjam said:
I for one learned today that you need a license to sell ammunition.
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No, you DO NOT need a license to sell ammunition....you need a license to manufacture ammunition that you then sell. And that 06FFL is cheap, $30 for a three year period.
Further, Mr. Haig wasn't just selling ammunition, he was manufacturing and selling armor piercing ammunition. Thats something that Congress really didn't like, so they added a hefty fee to obtain that license.

After some brief research it seems that this is something the ATF largely turns a blind eye to, until your ammunition hurts someone or is used in a crime.
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Well, ATF pretty much "turns a blind eye" to almost anything but the most egregious violations. For two big reasons, first rather than spend the time and energy on chasing down Bob The Gun Show Guy who sells a few reloads at gun shows, they'll likely issue him a cease and desist letter. Those tell him to get an 06FFL or stop selling his reloads. If he persists, it's at the risk of ATF referring the case to the US Attorneys Office. And thats the second big reason, USAO's seldom can be convinced to pursue criminal charges unless there are other underlying issues. And when they do file charges you can be assured they will likely stick.



This guy was either taking that gamble, or was ignorant which is entirely possible. It seems he had a legit business and a website, and for all we know he was paying taxes on his earnings: https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...ion_llc.5ae7f8ebe366165c66829673a3aae31e.html

I'd be curious to know if the ammo in question was truly armor piercing. The ATF fee to manufacture non armor piercing ammo is $30/3 years. But the fee for armor piercing is $3000/3 years. I wouldn't put it above a government agency to claim that green tip is armor piercing just to try to slap this guy with a larger crime.
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Did he really know he needed a license?
Did he really know manufacturing armor piercing ammo required an expensive FFL?

We'll never hear him testify under oath because HE PLED GUILTY to all charges......so yeah, he knew.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
He was not convicted for selling ammunition used in the Las Vegas shooting.
He [took a guilty plea] for being in the business of manufacturing ammunition for resale as a source of income without the business licensing.
The connection to Paddock is coincidental.....
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It's also how he got caught. He'd been in the unlicensed business of manufacturing ammunition for sale for a long time. But he only came under ATF scrutiny when a box with his name and address and cartridge cases with his fingerprints were found at the crime scene. So as part of the investigation of the Las Vegas shooting, federal authorities had occasion to look at Haig and what he'd been up to.

This is an excellent example of how some crimes [Haig's] get found out. Haig was unlucky. Haig was caught and prosecuted because an investigation of another crime found evidence leading back to him, resulting in an investigation which uncovered his entirely different crime.

We often see folks say things like, "I know it's illegal, but no one will know." But folks who commit crimes can get discovered in all sorts of serendipitous ways.

P5 Guy said:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/pulse-nightclub-shooters-wife-found-guilty/story?id=54122947

https://www.tampabay.com/news/publi...-hank-earl-carrs-girlfriend-set-free/2299589/

Similar events different outcomes, I wonder why?
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Perhaps similar, but not absolutely identical. As we point out all the time in connection with legal issues, the details matter.

giggitygiggity said:
....My point is that for someone who casually dabbles in the gun world, it is unreasonable to expect him/her to know all the federal gun laws, licensing requirements, etc let alone all the gun laws for that his/her state and locality.....
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And that is legitimately a problem. Having and using firearms is a heavily regulated activity, and it's easy to run afoul of the law.

In all the classes the instructor group I'm with put on, I point that out and provide a quick overview. I emphasize that I'm just scratching the surface, and I distribute a handout pointing the students to a bunch of on-line resources. We also give each student a copy of a thick book, written by a highly regarded RKBA lawyer, on California gun laws.

It's not going to be changing anytime soon, if at all.

On the other hand, prosecutors have a lot of discretion to decide when and how to prosecute. I suspect, but can't guarantee, that someone innocently, cluelessly, and with a pure heart who is caught committing a minor violation of one of the more technical gun laws might get off lightly. But there's no substitute for knowledge and avoidance.
 
dogtown tom said:
No, you DO NOT need a license to sell ammunition....you need a license to manufacture ammunition that you then sell. And that 06FFL is cheap, $30 for a three year period.
Further, Mr. Haig wasn't just selling ammunition, he was manufacturing and selling armor piercing ammunition. Thats something that Congress really didn't like, so they added a hefty fee to obtain that license.


Well, ATF pretty much "turns a blind eye" to almost anything but the most egregious violations. For two big reasons, first rather than spend the time and energy on chasing down Bob The Gun Show Guy who sells a few reloads at gun shows, they'll likely issue him a cease and desist letter. Those tell him to get an 06FFL or stop selling his reloads. If he persists, it's at the risk of ATF referring the case to the US Attorneys Office. And thats the second big reason, USAO's seldom can be convinced to pursue criminal charges unless there are other underlying issues. And when they do file charges you can be assured they will likely stick.




Did he really know he needed a license?
Did he really know manufacturing armor piercing ammo required an expensive FFL?

We'll never hear him testify under oath because HE PLED GUILTY to all charges......so yeah, he knew.
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The USAO (and I can tell you from the cons I deal with) does not give a damn wether you, me or Joe Blow did or did not know if one was breaking the rule(s). They really don’t. Every individual that’s facing trial has the same sob story. I can’t believe anyone (much less an aerospace engineer) wouldn’t have the common sense to consult a attorney before proceeding into this line of secondary employment. I’m a nurse and I know many of the rules governing the manufacture and sale of ammunition. How can a person that is engaging in it, “not know.” I can’t tell you how many guys are sitting in Federal Prison because they “didn’t know.” It seems to be common among felons or people that think that Federal law has no jurisdiction over them. This reminds me of the thought process behind many of the inmates known as “Sovereign Citizens.” It doesn’t matter I think the end. Federal Prosecutors are extremely ruthless and usually end up with their man (or woman). That’s why their conviction rates nationally are around 98-99%
 
dogtown tom said:
No, you DO NOT need a license to sell ammunition....you need a license to manufacture ammunition that you then sell.

So I want to get this straight. By your comment above you are saying that technically I could sell you ammunition that I had previously bought manufactured by say, Federal, Winchester, Hornady or even Jim Bob down the street PROVIDED that all these parties were licensed to do so through the federal government and possibly state and local governments? But......when I buy reloading components from a vendor, assemble said components and offer them for retail sale I am now breaking in the least federal law? If so I would agree with your post. Is that what you are saying or am I missing a part to this?
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alsaqr said:
For what? The feds never charged the manufacturers of the rifles, the bump stocks or the 5.56mm ammunition. Why would they charge another person who manufactured ammunition legally?

Had Mr. Haig simply fessed up to manufacturing the ammunition; the BATFE would have slapped his wrist and his career would have remained intact. Because of those lies Haig is a convicted felon with no gun rights. Lying to federal agents often have serious consequences.

Yeah, it's very fashionable on gun boards to simply blame the media.
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Manufacturers of firearms and ammunition (and other entities) are protected from intentional or unintentional misuse of their products by the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. There is another act more generalized that protects say, GM from being sued because you rear ended your 2020 corvette going 160 mph into a school bus killing all onboard. A note about the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. Democrats are trying diligently to repeal this act as it would allow them to bankrupt gun manufacturers and ammunition makers by wrongful death lawsuits.
 
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