Nightstand Pistol

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My nightstand gun is a Glock 19C (compensated) with a TLR2 light/laser combo. I was issued the MK23 many years ago. I never carried it because it was too big and heavy, the holsters we had sucked, and it wasn't compatible with the standard lights we had at the time. I instead chose to carry my 9mm pistol. Although, the MK23 was a great shooting pistol- they were relegated to "range play", and a few of the guys carried them for force protection on base in nylon slide holsters, keeping their 9mm pistols ready for use on "mission kit".
I've been in a gunfight or 2, and I never needed full auto with any type of weapon that wasn't fed by a belt and so designed for the purpose. If I end up needing a firearm in my house, I intend to use the exact number of rounds required, and flyers are completely unacceptable. I would never use a NFA type weapon for home defense for a number of reasons- first, I would never keep such a weapon anywhere except a safe due to the value of it, not to mention the likelihood of never seeing it again should I use it even for a lawful SD purpose. And even though a MK23 itself (with no suppressor) isn't a NFA item, it may as well be for the monetary value. So, my sub-$500 Glock with light and night sights is just fine for the mission.
 
Unless you are in the military, Full Auto really has no other purpose than turning money into noise.
Unless the weapon has a bipod/tripod and a belt feed (not to mention a well-trained gunner), FA has no place in the military, either. IMO.
 
We went away from full-auto on duty several years ago when the spectre of prison time and massive personal liability for errant shots striking an unintended person far outweighed the potential benefits of full-auto. All of our M-4's have been converted to semi-only now, and the Mp5's and Mp5k (My personal fav) have been limited to semi-auto on the selectors rather than 3-round-burst or full auto.
As have most of the enlightened law enforcement agencies in the country. While the MP5s were fun on the range, the Colt Commandos were actually a better choice for entry weapons I thought ... and same here, only semi-auto M4s these days.
Unless the weapon has a bipod/tripod and a belt feed (not to mention a well-trained gunner), FA has no place in the military, either. IMO.
Pretty much. No scenario I can think of for needing suppressive fire in the house (although reading this thread I picture Pacino coming down that staircase
 
Then why is every main infantry rifle in the world is select fire?
I think the problem is, they dont train people to use them, and Im betting its more a money/ training ammo consumption issue than anything else. And thats understandable for the bulk of the military too, if you think about it.

Most people I know who came out of the military had little regular productive range time, with anything, let alone any kind of full auto training.

I also think there is a lack of understanding as to its use, and many people seem to think youre going to have your selector set to "full", and shoot that way in every case. And thats not the case. It has a time and place, but how can you know that if you arent taught?

Alex summed things up very well in post #21, and contrary to what many who were in the military will tell you, its pretty obvious that most, if not the majority, got little if any training, and it was VERY obvious when I let them "try" to shoot my guns. My kids at 8 did better and were safer.
 
Then why is every main infantry rifle in the world is select fire?
I really have no idea. Maybe the "good idea fairy"? In the US military, standard current issue M16 rifles and M4 carbines have 3 round burst. In the Special Operations community, our M4's all come in the "A1" variant, meaning unrestricted full auto. I do know that the stock triggers on the A1 versions are better in semi than the burst A2 versions. That said, in Special Ops units like the Ranger Regiment, SF, and allied SOF units that I worked with from Canada, the UK, and Australia, semi auto is the method exclusively employed in these types of rifles. I would much rather have a AR/M4/M16 with a good semi only trigger like a Geissele or Larue MBT than any type of FA/burst arrangement, and I'm sure most others from the same places I come from would agree. I do find it odd that the higher ups put such a feature that isn't used in the rifles of those who most agree have better than average training and experience, and give everyone else a limited burst capability which also results in a poorer performing semi mode.
 
Pretty much. No scenario I can think of for needing suppressive fire in the house (although reading this thread I picture Pacino coming down that staircase
Again, a lack of understanding to its use. Its not about "suppression" in this use, its about picking a target and putting a quick, short burst on it. Think "shotgun with buck", and with something easier to shoot and handier to use.
 
Not for me, thanks.

I have no means to obtain one. I have no where in which to shoot one. I have no viable way to be trained in how to use one effectively.

It would be expensive and potentially dangerous to the rest of my family should choose one.

Here's the honest facts of my home invasion risks:
I live in a very modest home with no external markers of having anything inside needing a crew to obtain.
My home most likely won't be cased short of a drive by to look for low and vulnerable windows or weak doors. That is to say no one is going to be in the house looking for access points or valuables BEFORE they break in. This means that if they make noise enough to wake me and I arm myself, I can be at a defensive point and on guard at my designated choke point before they take the first item.

I dont care about my stuff. I care about my family. They are free to take and break whatever they want downstairs. The police and insurance agencies will do their jobs after the fact to rectify that. If they were to press up the stairs, then there would be action on my part.

For my needs, home layout, and skill set, a simple pump shotgun covers the bases. Even keeping it apples to apples in terms of handguns, I think I would rather have my 1911 and a reload. For defensive purposes, i much prefer that set up. Now, if we were talking an offensive push, yeah a machine pistol might do the job.

To each his own.
 
The rounds would go where you were aiming. Just like anything else.

Something like a 9mm SMG is a lot easier for "everyone" to shoot too, unlike a 12ga. or even a handgun.

One of my favorite lines from some movie that Duvall was in. He is teaching guys how to use sub's, tells them something like the muzzle goes where your eyes go, bullets do not go where you wish them to, they go where you aim. :D
 
"Something like a 9mm SMG is a lot easier for "everyone" to shoot too, unlike a 12ga. or even a handgun."

True. No one else in my house sleeps with a firearm near them, so I just suit myself. I personally prefer a shotgun to a 9mm carbine for HD, but I have the carbine if needed.
 
I have read at least a couple of dozen Vietnam memoirs. They are one of my favorite sub-genres.

In the memoirs from "professional" highly experienced, well-trained soldiers, they describe using semi-auto almost all of the time.

The draftees who were in regular infantry assignments seem to have generally used full auto whenever they were at close range and weren't in immediate danger of running out of ammo. They usually call it "rock and roll".
 
With the exception of a suppressor I have no interest in paying for, nor owning any NFA item.

I also don’t think using a full auto gun for defense, no matter if it was used in semi auto or not, is a good idea in the highly litigious and snowflake society that now exists. You will be characterized as a maniac, no matter your character.
 
NIGHTLORD40K

For a number years a Beretta Model 84 was my first line of defense at home. Great choice too!
It strikes a good balance between muzzle energy, capacity, ease of use by the wife and kids, and it fits nicely in my biometric nightstand safe with an extra mag, flashlight and a knife.

Before the wife and kids, my nightstand gun would be a HiPower or M92, with an Auto-5 or M1 carbine in the closet. Now, with the kids' teenage friends coming over, the closet guns have moved into the armory (which is always locked up), and the M1 carbine has given way to an AR just inside the armory door if it really hits the fan.
 
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I have a Sig p320 beside the bed and either a second p320 in a CAA MCK, a Keltec sub2K, or a home built AR9. The last three have been setup using Sig magazines for commonality.
 
My nightstand gun: S&W 327 Night Guard.

In my living room I keep a Glock 45.

All my guns are in safes.
Not paranoid. Just cautious.

If I could own a machine pistol I would love to have one, but it wouldn’t be a home defense gun.
 
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My nightstand gun: S&W 327 Night Guard. 8 rounds of .38 Spl Federal HST in a Stack On mini safe. My wife shoots this gun best out of all my guns so that is why it’s in the night stand. I sure don’t feel under gunned with it, plus I have 2 backup reloads in speed loaders.

In my living room I keep a Glock 45 and 3 mags of 115 grain American Gunner in a Heritage pistol safe next to my easy chair.

I also keep an S&W 442 in my garage in a Heritage pistol safe.

Not paranoid. Just cautious.

If I could own a machine pistol I would love to have one, but it wouldn’t be a home defense gun.

All my guns are in safes due to my grandson and his friends. It would kill me if one of his knucklehead buddies shot themselves or my grandson with one of my guns.
Just asking but how long does it take you too retrieve one of your firearms that are locked up in a safe ?
 
You do realize that:
1. Machine pistols have a selector switch and you can use it on semi.
2. The concept of control bursts.
3. There is no such drill as spray and pray except in movies and folks with MPs do not do this.

I do realize all that. And I stand by my statement. Apparently some of those here who have been in combat agree.

You do realize you'll probably have a hard time convincing your jury of all this?
 
I would not even consider a GLOCK 18 or BERETTA 93 for home defense. They are very hard to control and fire at a high rate.
Not even considering the legal problems that you could end up with. You know that there would be legal blowback when the news, police and lawyers found out you, "USED A MACHINE GUN TO GUN DOWN A BURLAR" and that is exactly how some media would report it.

I have fired enough full auto weapons to know that I would need A LOT MORE PRACTICE AND TRAINING to use full auto effectively.
A full auto M-4 is much, much, much easier to control and put on target at close range than a machine pistol. On this, I speak from personal experience.

The only machine pistol that I would consider, was the old Czech CZ-61. It was bigger than either weapon mentioned above and was designed to fire .32ACP rounds at full auto. At close range, the extra weight and low recoil of the .32ACP meant that it actually worked. At 5 yards, I could easily put a group into a target very quickly and go on to the next one. HOWEVER, THAT IS AT 5 YARDS!

I found it was more practical to use the stock and fire as a very small carbine on semi-auto past that range.

I think it was the combination of full auto and an attachable shoulder stock, that looked exotic and cool, that made the MAUSER Schnellfeuer so popular with insurgents and movie/tv crews. It was not the great record in combat.

I would love to buy a semi auto, short barreled 9m.m. carbine/sub-machine gun, like the MP5, UZI, or M4-9m.m. for home defense, but it is just not worth the legal hassle to me. Even without full auto, they would be a huge upgrade from my home gun, a BERETTA M9A3 with a light attached. On semi-auto, they would be very easy to control, still compact (less than a 16 inch barrel, say 10 or 12 inch), a 30 round plus magazine and have a shoulder stock to stabilize them when shooting.The down side is that they are heavy compared to a handgun, which you can just carry in a hip holster when you are moving around the house.

To me, machine pistols are the weapon of a specialist, with the exception of the CZ-61.

Jim
 
Then why is every main infantry rifle in the world is select fire?

Probably because the people who procure them aren't the ones using them.


You know that there would be legal blowback when the news, police and lawyers found out you, "USED A MACHINE GUN TO GUN DOWN A BURLAR CHILD" and that is exactly how some media would report it.

Fixed it for you....
 
Just asking but how long does it take you too retrieve one of your firearms that are locked up in a safe ?

I have a mini Stack On pistol safe in my nightstand. 3 seconds to retrieve.
The Heritage pistol safe in the living room, less than 2 seconds with RFID or 3 seconds punching combination.
 
I do realize all that. And I stand by my statement. Apparently some of those here who have been in combat agree.

You do realize you'll probably have a hard time convincing your jury of all this?
I think youll have that issue with a lot of things people have cobbled together of late. :thumbup:

I have fired enough full auto weapons to know that I would need A LOT MORE PRACTICE AND TRAINING to use full auto effectively.
A full auto M-4 is much, much, much easier to control and put on target at close range than a machine pistol. On this, I speak from personal experience.

The only machine pistol that I would consider, was the old Czech CZ-61. It was bigger than either weapon mentioned above and was designed to fire .32ACP rounds at full auto. At close range, the extra weight and low recoil of the .32ACP meant that it actually worked. At 5 yards, I could easily put a group into a target very quickly and go on to the next one. HOWEVER, THAT IS AT 5 YARDS!

I found it was more practical to use the stock and fire as a very small carbine on semi-auto past that range.

I think it was the combination of full auto and an attachable shoulder stock, that looked exotic and cool, that made the MAUSER Schnellfeuer so popular with insurgents and movie/tv crews. It was not the great record in combat.

I would love to buy a semi auto, short barreled 9m.m. carbine/sub-machine gun, like the MP5, UZI, or M4-9m.m. for home defense, but it is just not worth the legal hassle to me. Even without full auto, they would be a huge upgrade from my home gun, a BERETTA M9A3 with a light attached. On semi-auto, they would be very easy to control, still compact (less than a 16 inch barrel, say 10 or 12 inch), a 30 round plus magazine and have a shoulder stock to stabilize them when shooting.The down side is that they are heavy compared to a handgun, which you can just carry in a hip holster when you are moving around the house.

To me, machine pistols are the weapon of a specialist, with the exception of the CZ-61.

Jim
Once youre shown the proper technique, its actually very simple to shoot most shoulder fired pistol and intermediate rifle rounds, and actually do complete mag dumps and keep all the rounds on target at realisitic distances (10-25 yards) The technique is also very simple to learn and master, and enough so, Ive taught kids and non shooters to do it and usually in just a couple of mags.

Part of this too, and contrary to what you so often hear, is understanding that you arent going to be using FA much past buckshot range, if youre serious about using it for any kind decent precision.

Guns without a stock or some kind of brace, like a fitted sling, are a bit of a different critter, and especially things like the MAC's, UZI's, etc, that have their pistol grip amidships on the gun. They can be flat out dangerous if you dont know what youre doing. Those guns want to rock up and back at the grip, due to the bolt going back past it as it cycles.

Extend the stocks, and they too are fairly easily controled.

I shot this at 10 yards with my SWD M11/9mm. Thats two 25 round mags, one pull of the trigger each (full mag dumps), and total time was right around 3 seconds.

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This is the gun (bottom), and how it was shot.....
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Now, just to be clear, this was shot to simply show that you can control the gun and dump the whole mag, and on target, and in no way is how the gun would normally be shot. That gun has a fast cyclic rate, about 1200rpm, and the shortest burst you usually get, is around 5 rounds.Still, thats how it would normally be shot. Point it at the target, and give it a quick burst.

The MP5 (and a lot of the older open bolt guns) on the other hand, will easily let you squeeze off one round "bursts" if you desire, and 2-3 rounds is usually the norm. I used to shoot my MP40 at 100 yards, squeezing off one round at a time (the MP40 is an open bolt, FA only gun), with no trouble at all, and consistently make good hits with it.

If good old Ronnie Ray Guns hadn't screwed us back in '86, a lot more people might have had a chance to get to experience these type guns. Then again, even back when they were cheap and plentiful, most still hade very little exposure to and/or experience with them, and the misinformation about them was just as rampant.

Too bad. They are a lot of fun, and in the right hands, can be a very effective weapon.
 
I have family in the house.
I also dont want to be out of ammo in 3 seconds.
The answer is a definate NO.
However I wouldn't refuse one iif it dropped into my lap. If a pickup truck full of armed punks showed up in my driveway with a vendetta I would think a full auto weapon would send a strong message as long as I had cover. Otherwise for unidentified things that go bump in the night where i'd bave to go and investigate, a conventional semi-auto would be a much better option IMHO. That's more of a cat and mouse situation and much more common. A full auto blitzkrieg response in that case could just as easily announce your position, throw off your senses, and simply make you run out of ammo faster leaving you vulnerable.
 
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